Why waste time and energy Batoning and Chopping??

[Siberianfury]

the reason i carry a large knife is due to versitility and weight, it weighs less than an axe, it can do all the tasks of an axe and so much more, clear brush, dig, prep, skinn, carve, shape, battong ect. i carry a smaller knife aswell for sharp slicy tasks like woodwork, but the leuku seems to cover most of it. the axe is more of a specialist firewood processing tool for me, where alot has to be processed and therefor it is more efficent to use, but for forest work, the leuku and puukko cover it all, for me and many others including the sammi.

 

[BOD]

The main point of this was to get the opinion of people that like large knives as to why they use that instead of a saw or hatchet. I just found it to be a survivalist tool that doesn't belong into a bushcraft pack. .

You are in Canada, I am in rainforest country. When I am alone and not on tourist trails I do not want a saw or a hatchet which have minimal utility here. A big 22-24 in blade is what is needed. And a 4-5 " camp knife for general use and back up.

Hundreds of years of native wisdom say that this is what is needed for bushcraft and survival.

If you want to confine the OP to a particular type of environment please do but make it clear.

 

[Squidders]

Do you actually want to understand? Because everytime someone gives you an example of why they batton or prefer a big knife you just repeat that you don't get it.

People with big hands might want a big knife.
People that have to clear paths through dense scrub don't want to p*ss about cutting each thing in their way individually like clearing Rhododendron in the woods I go to - it's soft and large, bigger than an axe head and small knife.
People who practice other crafts than the only ones you seem to be interested in... such as making traditional willow hurdles

If you want to understand, the answers are out there.

And a survival situation does not only afford you what you have and what you crash with. There are an unlimited number of ways to get into a survival situation, most recently from natural disasters that may displace you and just because you think it's illogical to use a big knife, if your crashed plane lands on someone with a big knife, you should get some practice in sooner rather than later.

 

[Siberianfury]

"I just found it to be a survivalist tool that doesn't belong into a bushcraft pack"

bushcraft and survival are the same thing, just a diffrent mind set. look across the world at people who live every day of their lives in the forest, from jungles to tundra most of them use a large 5-9" bladed knife, because its versitile. just because Ray Mears doesnt endorse the large knife and perfers to carry his own (branded and marketed) small knife, a saw and an axe doesnt mean they are inadiquite.
ray endorsed 3 bushcraft tools that worked for him, for example, how many of us woud have heard of gransfors bruks if he hadnt endorsed the company to the extent where he mentioned that they are the only axe fit for wilderness use?

personaly i prefer a fiskars hatchet but thats another story, they point im trying to make is that just because a tool is more steriotypicaly bushcrafty doesnt make it better, at the end of the day large knives for chopping serve their purpose, they get the job done quickly and efficently, small knives are good for craftwork. saws are good if you dont have a chopping tool, but they lack versitility and an axe, well yes its great for heavy chopping but i cant clear brush, prep game or carry it as easily as a good old leuku.

in a survival situation which you will rarley have a survival knife or kit on you for mainly due to planes being ridiclous with their security, it would be a far better idea to just stay near to the crash site and wait for a rescue team to pick up the signal from the black box and come to the rescue than run off into the woods and try to make traps with the contents of your hand luggage, that is saying if you somehow survive the crash.

 

[Hedgehog]

One knife? - give me a 7-9" Leuku every time.

Light & nimble enough for good control - large enough for efficient chopping.

Given the choice then a Puukko & Leuku - for longer stays add an axe (22"+) & a bow saw.

Ultimately we all like to play with different combinations & many are valid - though every task may have its ultimate tool various combinations will cover many bases & yeald efficient results.

We all travel our own paths & our choices may change over time be it by experience, experiment or necessity.

Make the best of the tools you have, learn the limits of their use & find your own combinations.

(a slight aside: don't pick your fire wood off the ground - rather off the ground, as in not toughing it )

 

[Bushnoob]

I do understand it and I do see why large knives are more useful in some situations and areas. If I had a knife along it would be a large one, preferibly with a scandi edge to still allow it to function as a knife.

It is hard for me to describe my situation but I just don't see why my mate carries nothing more than a large knife and depends on it after we have already learned how to make fire and shelter with it in almost any condition my area has to offer. Once you make a fire and shelter in the conditions more than 5 times dont you want to learn more? Even though you don't want to bring other tools with you on some trips don't you want to learn how to use them properly and safely? Don't you want to learn how to craft and make technical things?

This whole thread was a bit misleading but I couldn't think of how to word it all. I feel like I have to bring what my mate brings only to keep up or prove I can work with nothing more than a knife aswell. So I guess now I ask what should I do? Keep bringing my tools and work ahead of him or keep the caveman aspect of hitting stick on knife all of the time but never understanding bushcraft more deeply than a basic knife survival.
It sort of comes down to 'anyone with a fist can throw it, feet can kick, knife can baton, but can you do more technical things to allow you to work more effectively and efficiently?' Why do people limit themselves to knowledge when they have the chance to learn more while having free time, and why do people find the need to chop trees, baton sticks and destroy the scenery when it is bone dry outside XD

I don't see the point in that when they can just collect sticks good enough for a fire for a quick day camp. I do think that people should still be open minded and use basic knowledge and little effort while still gaining knowledge. (Not that people on here don't). I'm sure my mate would have a better time if he saw that all of the wood I gathered didn't require a knife and that is why I am relaxing around the fire. I find that once he has the free time maybe he will take his batoning obsession and learn to carve other things. I brought the idea of using a wedge and he seemed to have thought it wasn't possible. I'd just like advice or opinions as to leave him be or continue using tools in hopes that he might catch on.

Which is where the question of the topic comes from...
It is a bit deeper than that but now you might be able to see where I am coming from.

A large knife is not necessary in my area to clear shrubs or vines and an axe or saw is more than useful where I live. Too only choose a large knife and limit your intelligence here is nothing more than someone stuffing a cucumber in your trousers while talking macho to women Just to prove some form of manlieness and be a bit over-the-top with your actions.

I hope you understand what I mean now but thank you for all of the responses, no matter how harsh they were

 

[santaman2000]

Strict definition: Bushcraft = the craft and art of survival in the bush. Particularly as regards hunting, fishing, wild food gathering, firemaking, and avoiding being eaten or killed by dangerous wildlife. Needed skills are tracking, knowledge of the local area, the ability to read the weather from natural signs and shelter from it and stealth.

Strict definition: Homesteading = settling on a piece of property and improving it to support you. Needed skills farming ability, the ability to "make tools" from available resources, the knowledge to recognize and harvest natural resources and the ability to read the weather from natural signs and prepare for it.

I find that in my area I don't NEED or use ANY cutting tool to make a fire. Dry pine straw is gathered by hand for tinder, twigs are broken by hand for kinling (if I cain't just find a piece of Lightard wood) and fuel wood is simply dragged up and place on the fire whole. If it's too long so what? It will burn in two and the ends are then pushed into the fire. Most people tend to forget that fire itself is a tool for forming wood too.

I carry a big knife because I like a big knife, I carry an small knife (pocket knife) because I like small knives. I carry an axe because I like an axe (i was a logger as a teenager). They are all fun. I like bushcraft and I like homesteading (or to be more accurate, I like playing at both. Be real; none of us depend on our bushcraft to survive. We do it because it's fun) Why does anyone need to justify that? That's exactly what you are really asking your friend to do when you ask why he feels a need to carry a big knife. He carries it because he WANTS to. Why isn't that enough?

 

[Bushnoob]

Strict definition: Bushcraft = the craft and art of survival in the bush. Particularly as regards hunting, fishing, wild food gathering, firemaking, and avoiding being eaten or killed by dangerous wildlife. Needed skills are tracking, knowledge of the local area, the ability to read the weather from natural signs and shelter from it and stealth.

Strict definition: Homesteading = settling on a piece of property and improving it to support you. Needed skills farming ability, the ability to "make tools" from available resources, the knowledge to recognize and harvest natural resources and the ability to read the weather from natural signs and prepare for it.

I find that in my area I don't NEED or use ANY cutting tool to make a fire. Dry pine straw is gathered by hand for tinder, twigs are broken by hand for kinling (if I cain't just find a piece of Lightard wood) and fuel wood is simply dragged up and place on the fire whole. If it's too long so what? It will burn in two and the ends are then pushed into the fire. Most people tend to forget that fire itself is a tool for forming wood too.

I carry a big knife because I like a big knife, I carry an small knife (pocket knife) because I like small knives. I carry an axe because I like an axe (i was a logger as a teenager). They are all fun. I like bushcraft and I like homesteading (or to be more accurate, I like playing at both. Be real; none of us depend on our bushcraft to survive. We do it because it's fun) Why does anyone need to justify that? That's exactly what you are really asking your friend to do when you ask why he feels a need to carry a big knife. He carries it because he WANTS to. Why isn't that enough?

I totally agree with all of what you're saying and as I said that why not let the fire burn the wood as it goes, and if it is wet let the fire dry it out, but I had a few negative responses by people saying that it would make the fire weak and you're better of cutting each piece down. But as for me asking my friend to use the skills to survive I kinda of disagree.... I don't always ask him to bring more tools, he can use what he wants, but I ask him to explore a bit more skills and be open to them. If I want to do something else we never do it, even without the use of tools. His main priority will always be making the fire and it always takes us up to an hour when we use nothing but knives. It can get reckless and rediculus sometimes when it takes that long and they burn to quickly. So should I just continue doing my way of the fire and then let him do his own thing?

I feel like I'm leaving him behind for a few things or we are wasting time that isn't necessary. The main thing that we do is go out and make a fire. Simple as that. Not every day we need a fire if we are leaving just as it gets dark! Even during the summer. And if it isn't that, we go on hikes but never explore more of the tracking, making tools, reading nature, etc...

Thank you for the response though

 

[Toddy]

Squidders I don't think I quite deserved that rant, however, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am.
However, apart from the 'only' comment I don't see much disagreement.
Fish filleting....this is the woman who's allergic to the damned stuff but yes, I have filleted fish, and I've used everything from a sabatier to a sushi knife to a flint blade to do it. Not only one knife will ever do every task to it's best advantage. I think BOD's post was right on the mark.

The crux of my post was simply, learn.
Learn to use what is available, learn to use effectively and be adaptable to circumstances.
........and mine don't include back of beyond no power tools cabin building

Before you start throwing more aggro around, this is me, Toddy, speaking, not Toddy the MOD, laying down the law. Chill out man; the discussion was interesting.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[ged]

Agreed with Mary, the discussion is interesting and there's no need to raise the temperature. FWIW I don't think I'd call what I do 'bushcraft'. I call it 'bumming around in the woods' or just 'camping'. I've done it for well nigh fifty years and I've managed most of that time with a small folder and a multi-tool. I didn't even get a decent multi-tool until about twenty years ago. Its most important feature as far as I'm concerned is a folding saw. I've almost always had axes and machetes etc. in the shed but never considered taking them camping. Recently I've, er, branched out a bit in the cutting tools area and I have a few larger blades such as parangs. I have to say that the Malaysian parangs are awesome and I'd love to have a "reasonable excuse" to take one with me when I go camping, but I really can't think of one off the top of my head. So I don't. As for batoning in particular, I've never seen the need and I've never done it other than for the exercise. I have a nice maul and a couple of sledges.

 

[johnboy]

Interesting...

Looks like we're begining to have a 'what is bushcraft' type discussion..

I have a buddy that is like Nutnfancy. LARGE KNIFE! CHOP! BATON!

I'm interested in some of Nutnfancy's youtube stuff. If you get past all of the run + gunning he has some opinions on kit and knife choice for the environment he spends a lot of time in which seems to be the Rockies. In many ways he's the total opposite tool choice wise for a large proportion of the UK Bushcraft scene. He uses a big kahuna knife for multiple tasks from chopping down small trees to batoning down fire wood. I had thought that perhaps the 'large knife thing' was perhaps based on American Military survival training ethos etc.. I asked this question over on BCUSA and the opinion there seemed to be that the 'large knife thing' was something nutnfancy liked and wasn't particularly representative of the US Survival scene...

Thus I guess some folk like big knives, some like small ones and some can live without one at all. Personally I'm not sure is there a wrong or right per se with knife or tool selection, more so when for a lot of people it's a selection that supports a hobby or pastime.

my 2c..

Cheers

John

 

[Mistwalker]

Living in a rain forest sometimes batoning is the only means of attaining materials for ignition, though seldom is batoning of anything large necessary for me. I do however tend to max new knives out during initial tests just to see how they will take it. It isn't the length of a knife that is of primary interest for me, it is the thickness. I am fine with a knife with a four or five inch blade, but if I intend for it to deal with rough use I prefer it to be at least 5/32 or 3/16, 4mm or so, thick. I do know that 1/8 or 3mm can take some abuse but I like to error on the side of durability.

That said, I had no idea that this forum had been around since 1970. I would think in 41 years Siberianfurry would have much more than 1,041 posts....

 

[rik_uk3]

I can't comment on Canada because I've not been there. For the type of camping I do I find a saw of some kind more useful than an axe and a simple knife like a Mora or 2010 will baton a bit of firewood for me. My camp buddy usually has a small axe if needed for some splitting.

Bushnoob, the UK is very different to Canada, people don't get lost and starve to death in the woods so the survival mindset is not required as much as may be needed with you.

"I'd like to ask people why they would waste their energy building a shelter and a fire by batoning and chopping trees of unnecessary size?"

Just to practise doing it I suspect is the real answer and not from necessity.

 

[sapper1]

I use a 4 inch knife for chopping and battoning for the simple reason I can't use an axe.I have had lessons and much practice but can't do it,so I have learnt how to baton efficiently and am now happy that I can get all my wood the size and shape I need just with a 4 inch knife.I also carry a 12 inch folding saw.

 

[Siberianfury]

That said, I had no idea that this forum had been around since 1970. I would think in 41 years Siberianfurry would have much more than 1,041 posts....

hahaha, i dont understand it either, i was born in 1991 yet strangly was able to join a forum that did not yet exist 21years before my birth.

 

[ged]

hahaha, i dont understand it either, i was born in 1991 yet strangly was able to join a forum that did not yet exist 21years before my birth.

It's a computer thing. The 'Unix' world tends to measure dates and times as the number of seconds since the beginning of 1970. All that's happened is that the number of seconds between then and your joining date as stored on the forum database has somehow been set to zero. That' would probably be called a 'bug'.

 

[Siberianfury]

It's a computer thing. The 'Unix' world tends to measure dates and times as the number of seconds since the beginning of 1970. All that's happened is that the number of seconds between then and your joining date as stored on the forum database has somehow been set to zero. That' would probably be called a 'bug'.

i reckon its pretty cool i think i joined in 2004.

 

[santaman2000]

I totally agree with all of what you're saying and as I said that why not let the fire burn the wood as it goes, and if it is wet let the fire dry it out, but I had a few negative responses by people saying that it would make the fire weak and you're better of cutting each piece down. But as for me asking my friend to use the skills to survive I kinda of disagree.... I don't always ask him to bring more tools, he can use what he wants, but I ask him to explore a bit more skills and be open to them. If I want to do something else we never do it, even without the use of tools. His main priority will always be making the fire and it always takes us up to an hour when we use nothing but knives. It can get reckless and rediculus sometimes when it takes that long and they burn to quickly. So should I just continue doing my way of the fire and then let him do his own thing?

I feel like I'm leaving him behind for a few things or we are wasting time that isn't necessary. The main thing that we do is go out and make a fire. Simple as that. Not every day we need a fire if we are leaving just as it gets dark! Even during the summer. And if it isn't that, we go on hikes but never explore more of the tracking, making tools, reading nature, etc...

Thank you for the response though

Now we're getting to the heart of your problem. We both agree that your friend and you simply have differing goals. He obviously enjoys the way he's doing things and you obviously want to try something differently. Peoples tastes do change more frequently than we realize and either one of you could shift to the others point of view over time. Unfortunately that's not predictable. There are so many different opinions on this forum it's difficult to imagine there not being others you could camp with. Your friend will try other aspects of bushcraft on his own if/when he's ready without prodding. In the meantime have your own fun and let him have his.

BTW I agree some people split their wood too thin (whether with an axe or by batonning) and it simply burns too fast whereas it would have burned better and longer if left whole.

 

[Bushnoob]

Well thank you all for the responses, I really did appreciate them. I do understand why some people just like the big knife and of course for its uses, but has anyone here ever refused to go with nothing more than a knife? If so of what size?

I'm just a bit curious and nerved as to why my friend won't bring anything else. I think he doesn't just like the whole knife idea or the light carry but I think Man v.s. Wild has somewhat brainwashed him. Now mind you that Bear Grylls knows his stuff and he has most likely practiced all forms of bushcraft before, but my friend I don't think seems to know that.
Now I'm not just talking about tools but gear in general. Now this could be a debate of any kind as long is relates to the topic of learn the difficult way and continue the easy way. Learning how to use sub standard tools will most likely make you better and stronger with more tools as long as you have knowledge. But it comes to everything he carries. The knife is about it aside from a cantine and it makes sence if you know what you're doing but otherwise it is not a risk that is necessary. He doesn't bring a first aid kit along either, not even a single band-aid for that matter. One time we went out and he really cut his finger open good and he never had a band-aid and he began to get light headed and weasy. Luckly I have one on me at all times but to me that isn't the point. I'd just like to hear whether I should try it his way so that I can keep up with him on our treks or maybe tell him he is being to reckless... It may not be reckless for some but the main knowledge he has (And myself) is making a fire and lean-to. That's about all.

Thank you very much for every response and please let's not turn this into a ranting thread....

 

[santaman2000]

Have I ever REFUSED to carry anything more than a knife and canteen? No. Have I ever gone out with just a knife and canteen? Yes. The answer's not as simple as it seems. It is foolish not to have a 1st Aid Kit on longer treks far from help but are most of your treks near quick rescue? I suspect not if you are going into backwoods Canada. If you are staying on established trails in Provincial Parks might be safe enough though. I tend to tailor my load to my trip but often lean on the heavy side. Sometimes out of caution but more often out of the hopes I'll get to play with my gear (I'm a bit of a gear hound) Other times I carry excess gear just to see how well I CAN carry it or to build up my stamina for a longer trek.