When is kit kit?

[Paul_B]

Dachstein mitts are kind of a special case. They are a boiled wool product. By that I mean they are made out of good wool in oversized mitts (read XXXL) then boiled for a long time to within an inch of its life. This has the obvious (to anyone who's ruined a favoured wool jumper before now) effect of shrinking it. This makes the knit very tight indeed and means it will not shrink anymore. It also makes it highly windproof, water / weather resistant and very warm. That is perfect for cold, dry conditions up in the snow level of high mountains such as the Alps and Himalayas. Also a very cold spell in Scotland, Lakes or Snowdonia when walking.

Anyhow they are a well known and respected brand and type of product that has survived the years and technology. Just like buffalo double p tops and ventile for the colder regions of the world. It does happen but it doesn't mean it should be the same for everything. IMHO technology in all things should be embraced if they improve your lot. If they don't then don't go for them but to stick to the old just because it works adequately when something might be out there that is better is slightly wrong headed IMHO. I'm nbot saying replace everything as soon as the latest new thing comes out I am just saying that if you are in the market for some particular item don't rule out the latest new piece of kit just because you like the idea of the old tech. Check things out and be prepared to call out the sales assistant when you catch them trying to con you. Afterall it is their job to get money from you and your job to get what you need for the least money you can get away with. Or at least that is how I feel about retail.

As far as the place in Wales I would probably say it is Cotswolds if its in Betwys or V12 or joe Brown in Llanberis. V12 is staffed heavily with up themselves climbers. I'm sorry if any of them are reading this but that has only been my experience of the V12 shop over the numerous years I've seen it there.

I do find that if a shop is staffed by people who are very keen on a particular outdoor discipline such as fell running or climbing then they also tend to be elitist in their attitudes to selling and to their customers. I have also had reverse elitism once or twice. That happened when I went into a outdoor shop in the budget end of the market and got ignored because I was wearing good brands. In one case I had just been on a walk and it was the end of the day. I was going in there to make a genuine purchase for something that I knew they'd have and I wear I saw them check my gear out (good softshell brand, good fell shoes, good technical sack, a branded hat (bought at a cheap price in a sale not for the TNF branding) and the like then probably thought I was there wasting their time.

So my bet for the shop is Cotswolds, V12 and Joe Brown. Am I right?

 

[nige7whit]

There's a great deal of room for mixing and matching, to suit the situation...

Over the years, I have tried loads of kit ideas, and sometimes regret selling or giving away some of the things that I went off years ago.

When I'm hillwalking, my kit tends to be slightly different to what I would term my 'Bushcraft Gear'. For bushy purposes, I tend to prefer a low tech approach, to a degree, such as the Swedish Army Trangia, as opposed to my Titanium pot hillwalking setup.

For walks in the woods, I tend to prefer more natural colours, greens, khaki, etc, but I still use my Lundhag Ranger boots for everything, until the weather gets hot.

I don't like dressing in 'military surplus' clothing, or DPM fabrics, as I get enough of that at work.

Some military kit is good value, I love my MOD Survival Knife, and prefer it to a small axe for the small chopping tasks. I'm toying with the idea of getting a green bergan, so I can leave my bright blue rucsack at home for bushy gatherings... I had one years ago, but stupidly sold it, when I thought I'd never use it again.

 

[johnboy]

Perhaps we have to accept that we are a specialist market if we want to wear natural fibres and "old fashoioned" kit.

Exactly.

Bushcraft kit is a highly specialist market within a specialist market of outdoor 'kit'.

10 years ago no one in the outdoor equipment market would have predicted people would be wanting Ventile jackets and woolen tops etc. All the brands we talkabout in the 'bushcraft' world like Swazi, Swanndri, Fjallraven, Norrona. Nobody had really heard of in the UK.

I suspect it's difficult for mainstream outdoor retailers to know what to do..
If they changed tack and stocked some accepted bushcraft brands how well would the brands be accepted? Would folk go and buy a Swanndri from Cotswold???

I'm guessing they are happy selling what they do and are happy to leave what is a niche product to specialist retailers.

 

[darrenh]

sorry for the simplistic reply!!! i didnt want to go into great depths about technical kit its a quagmire of mostly opinions from sales reps and like you said sales staff who never use the kit themselves and would have you believe that there product is all singing all dancing. The most important thing is what fits you and what works for you, the best all singing all dancing pro shell with waterproof (sic) zips, pit zips ect might be amazing but is it right for you? does it fit? people forget practicalities, this is a topic which could go on forever and my appologies for reviving an old thread i didnt look at the date last posted. Regards Darren

 

[maddave]

I went looking for a fleece and found that they were 'interactive'. What the hell is an interactive fleece I wondered ? I tried talking to it, but there was no response. Didn't even have batteries never mind a mains lead or solar panels so I left it in the shop.

There is an appalling amount of bllx in the outdoor kit industry these days, and Betws y Coed is at the heart of it.

I hope you have this years correct colour for your rope, or you are just so passe.

Richard
(Wax cotton and a cheap fleece/woolly jumper)

Interesting you should mention colours... I got a £200 aztec tent for £70 because the door trim was red (2008) rather than green (2009). To me the best kit is what works. None of my fleeces are interactive and as for technical garments....

 

[Paul_B]

A local vango retailer sells blue vango tents for about 20% less than the green/black ones.

DarrenH -sorry about the simplistic comment. just tryiing to make a point but don't mean to offend, ( or in this case at least.

 

[Tony]

Hi guys this is my first reply to a post and i dont want to cause a storm with it.Paramo is NOT waterproof but directional, it has no HH rating so cannot be classed as waterproof. and wool when wet insulates better that 99% of man made fibres with possibly the exception of polartec fabrics which are hollow therefore trap air inside the particle ect ect but cheap fleeces in general dont insulate better then wool. regards Darren

Yes darren, that's why i stated it was a system and you're quite correct in what you say although it is a narrow definition, the system produces a waterproof product when defined as 'one stays dry when the heavens have opened' just as dry and sometimes dryer than products made of materials with good HH values.

Saying they are not waterproof is a pedantic and it's often used by competing firms to Parmo to put off people buying their products. To me and many others the paramo products we use are as effective or more effective than many competing waterproof jackets

 

[Doc]

A good way to see how fabrics insulate when wet is to hang out the washing on a winters day. Wet fleece still feels warm to the touch. Wool is almost as good. Ventile feels fairly cold, but ordinary cotton is absolutely chilling when wet.

 

[Tony]

Yeah, very true, i'd be quite picky if i was after insulation. Other than my own

 

[Wayland]

I have to admit that there are some other factors that I tend to consider when buying kit.

First of all, does it make me sound like a walking crisp packet? I don't know about you but I hate the rustle of synthetic jackets when I'm out on the fells or in the woods. My hearing is bad enough without trying to hear over the racket some modern kit produces.

Secondly, how is it going to smell after a couple of days wearing? If I'm packing out, I want to carry the minimum of gear and that may well mean limited changes of clothing. I may not be bothering anyone else if I smell like a wrestlers armpit, but I like my air fresh and some synthetics really stink if you're working hard in them.

Thirdly, and this may be a bit nit picky, I detest velcro on clothing. Sure, it has it's uses but I have decided on a number of occasions to buy products with good pop fasteners instead of similar items with velcro just because I hate the stuff. It's not just the sound when you are trying to be quiet but it's the fact that it seems to stick to just about everything else I wear, especially wool jumpers.

On the whole I prefer natural materials because they often tick these boxes, but that does not mean I'm not open to other materials if they offer a real advantage.


Oh yes, I also don't like bright coloured gear, but that's mainly a hangover from my landscape photography shooting film. I have lost count of the shots that have been spoiled by a procession of gaudy polychromatic walkers tramping through my field of view. It's one of the reasons I used to shoot mainly in black and white.

These days of course I can remove them, or at least change the colours, with Photoshop so it's less of an issue now.

 

[John Fenna]

I have to admit that there are some other factors that I tend to consider when buying kit.

First of all, does it make me sound like a walking crisp packet? I don't know about you but I hate the rustle of synthetic jackets when I'm out on the fells or in the woods. My hearing is bad enough without trying to hear over the racket some modern kit produces.

Secondly, how is it going to smell after a couple of days wearing? If I'm packing out, I want to carry the minimum of gear and that may well mean limited changes of clothing. I may not be bothering anyone else if I smell like a wrestlers armpit, but I like my air fresh and some synthetics really stink if you're working hard in them.

Thirdly, and this may be a bit nit picky, I detest velcro on clothing. Sure, it has it's uses but I have decided on a number of occasions to buy products with good pop fasteners instead of similar items with velcro just because I hate the stuff. It's not just the sound when you are trying to be quiet but it's the fact that it seems to stick to just about everything else I wear, especially wool jumpers.

On the whole I prefer natural materials because they often tick these boxes, but that does not mean I'm not open to other materials if they offer a real advantage.


Oh yes, I also don't like bright coloured gear, but that's mainly a hangover from my landscape photography shooting film. I have lost count of the shots that have been spoiled by a procession of gaudy polychromatic walkers tramping through my field of view. It's one of the reasons I used to shoot mainly in black and white.

These days of course I can remove them, or at least change the colours, with Photoshop so it's less of an issue now.

These are many of the things I look at when chosing gear - the main differences are that I can live with Velcro...though it is not a favourite...and you can add that camo is not on the list of my wants either...
You have to remember that kit becomes KIT only when you make it yourself!

 

[Big Geordie]

Well said John. Home made kit is usually tailor made to your own requirements. In theory you are getting it 100% right for you not the salesman.

But kit only becomes KIT when you love it to bits and want to wear it everywhere!!
G

 

[Paul_B]

I disagree with Wayland about synthetics. Not all waterproofs made out of synthetics rustle like a crisp packet. In fact IME there are two types that do really rustle badly and they are the cheap and nasty and the Ultra Lightweight ones. Of course some in those categories do not rustle but I think any you do find like that will fit into one of these.

Secondly poppers do not allow the same degree of adjustment as hook an loop closures. Compromises made I guess.

As far as stinking synthetics I think you will find a big improvement these days. I have done 2 weeks before now in the same clothes (I think I had one shower the whole time) and on the bus home at the end I didn't have any comment or anyone moving away. I took it to be that I didn't smell bad. My tops consisted of Patagonia's Capilene and Odlo's synthetics with a Marmot synthetic top as well. I don't even think they had the much hyped silver in the thread neither. I think will merino and modern synthetics it is all down to the shape and size of the fibre and any coatings that reduces the smell causing bacteria to multiply thus increasing the pong factor. Although, how can I put it delicately without causing offence, it is sometime quite clear that everyone's skin is not the same as indeed everyone is different in many ways. That means we all sweat and smell differently. This will obviously mean that the anti-microbial properties of outdoors fabrics will have to work harder on some people than others. Unfortunately in those cases it could be better to give them as much help as possible by choosing merino wool base layers which is probably still ahead of the synthetics.

IF anyone has read the latest TGO the UL writer in the mag has done an article on pong and how by modifying the pH you can reduce the bacterias that cause the pongs. If you struggle with your smell take a look at it. You might learn something to your advantage. And please don't start spraying your camp mates with vinegar just because they stink. It is not good camp etiquette don't you know!

 

[Gavmar]

Hi

I have a Paramo jacket and I can say that it is very waterproof.

 

[Tengu]

I wear a cotton smock with a ripstop poncho if it does rain.

I have no trouble with this

 

[Matt.S]

I like my Filson tincloth cruiser. It's basically heavy-duty waxed cotton. Tough, waterproof, dependable, quiet, stylish, practical. Oh and it smells good too. But then I don't really go for 'bushcraft' clothes -- most of my everyday clothes are practical for outdoors work and play as well as not looking out-of-place in everyday urban life. Thats one of the reasons I don't go for DPM or even green much any more. It doesn't look out of place in any but the most formal of occasions and I wear it to work, to study, to shoot, to pubs, to clubs, to dates, to cafes... oh and to woods and beaches and hills. Filson gear isn't cheap but for the amount I paid (about £135), the above qualities, being in my (skinny) size and the projected lifetime of the garment (measured in decades not seasons) I think I have made the best choice for me.

 

[Large Sack]

Sorry, just dug this up
Funny how the use of man made fibres in 'technical' clothing has accelerated exponentially in comparison to the demise of the nylon sheet, nylon shirt (and the swing wing collar) and Brentford Nylons (got to be of an age to appreciate this )

 

[Tengu]

Nylon sheets?!!

<runs screaming in fright>

 

[Large Sack]

Nylon sheets?!!

<runs screaming in fright>

LMAO ...we had some at home in the early 70s (I was a kid in those days )you could bury yourself under the bedclothes and then quickly run your hand up the sheet and see static charges jump about. Not to mention the almost immediate electrocution upon entering the bathroom each morning. They didn't last long. Major fire hazard too

 

[apj1974]

Interesting discussion. But I must admit the main concern for me is price. I've never been very rich and cant afford to shop in Betwys y Coed! But I've also never frozen to death or died on the hills so I must be doing something right. I suppose modern (expensive) equipment tends to try and do everything in one garment, I'm dubious about the ultra light mentality though. Different clothes for different seasons, layers layers layers, plenty of backup stuff and above all knowing when to shelter or stop or turn back seems to have kept me alive so far.

Edit, I was tramping around on the top of a glacier in Austria a few years ago wearing a regatta jacket with a school uniform type reversible fleece jacket zipped in and a hat from lidl!