What can you do without?

[addyb]

I think that for me, the term bushcraft might have a different meaning than it does for many of you. To be honest, I'm not interested in a lot of the more primitive tasks that many of you have already mastered. When I think of bushcraft, I think "I'm lost in the woods. I was seperated from my party. I've got the clothes on my back and a few essentials in a kit bag. I know that Search and Rescue is going to come find me within a few days. What do I need to know to sustain myself comfortably until that time?" I guess what falls under the "survival" terminology. After witnessing and being part of a few really bad outdoor accidents, I basically came to the conclusion that "Sh*t. I don't know what I'd do if I was in *insert bad situation here.* I'd probably die before search and rescue came to find me."

Granted, perhaps flint knapping or making cordage might come in handy if I was lost, but as to a basic few days waiting for some SAR-techs to come get me, I'd say I'd probably survive long enough to be rescued. I can make snares, make fire with my firesteel, build a survival shelter, and I know every item in my kitbag(s) off by heart. I'd like to say that I'm comfortable with that notion.

But there's still a lot of other things that I haven't learned, and that's why I'm here. The sheer joy I get from posting on this forum, interacting, and learning things from other people sharing similar interests to mine is why I have eight hundred and something posts. And the fact that I continue to learn from this site is why I keep coming back.

The saddest part of this thread for me is that, I don't get out as much as I used to. I work a lot of hours, and university takes up even more hours. When I'm not at work or school, I'm studying for exams. But every so often, when I can have that window of opportunity, a few days in the bush can be a wonderful thing.

Adam

 

[ArkAngel]

Armchair hunter as well as armchair bushcrafter then ...

Yeah it's the holes in the walls the wife doesn't like

Perphaps i should of worded that slightly better

 

[fred gordon]

So it seems the essence of my original post is yes! This forum has evolved into a bushkit forum because there's only so much you can talk about bushcraft skills.

It appears that it is infinitely more interesting and sexier to talk about kit.

I feel the site has indeed evolved into a bushkit site.

I'm not sure I agree with this. My impression is that if you look at all the threads in all the forum areas you will find other things like recipes, cordage, etc. You just need to look. However, if what you say is the case then we are all guilty, but, it is what we seem to want to discuss at the moment. It is also up to those who want more of other things to start posting about them. So if we want more about shelter building and other more 'purist' elements of Bushcraft then those who feel like that need to get posting. I would certainly be interested.

 

[Neanderthal]

Fire Starter,

In reply to your original post.

I've got plenty of kit which I could take but I try to pack from the perspective of what can I do without as I've carried too much kit far too many miles.

In an effort to reduce the weight and volume of kit I carry, I keep trying to do without a sleeping bag. By picking the best/most sheltered campsite or using the other kit with me in a different way to best effect i.e feet in rucksack, matteress from natural materials, wearing a hat. Although I've had a number of cold nights I have in fact learnt quite a bit about various techniques and what level of comfort I'm prepared to accept. On a 40+ mile walk from home to the Peak District I was able to just take my buffalo jacket and find enough bits and pieces to make a rough shelter which was good enough to keep me warm overnight or at least what was left of the night. A lighter pack=faster travel=greater mileage=less days food needed=a lighter pack. Unfortunately there are limits to how far this concept can be carried.

Similarly I've stopped using my Trangia stove in favour of a home made alchohol can stove and potstand made from a coat hanger as this system is much lighter. I'm also using a hobo stove made from an 800g soup can as I can find a few sticks/cones etc to cook with which saves taking as much meths.

Thanks to the various Group buys (thanks guys) I can sometimes replace my tent with a tarp/hammock system saving some more weight.

While a lot of the above is just using different kit, some of it is made from what would be junk found in the environment, so I could make things as needed and adapt as the situation dictated. In order to use many bushcraft skills I find that there is a penalty in terms of time, boiling water to make it safe is one good example. However if I'm out bushcrafting for the weekend then time is not a problem and I can enjoy being outdoors.

One thing I would like to leave behind is the library that seems to live in my rucksack. There seems so much I don't know and I seem to be finding out more interesting areas I know little about.

Stu

(Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.)

 

[Fire Starter]

Hold on guys, I am not out to offend anyone nor burst anyone's perception of what bushcraft is or how they go about it.
I simply asked about the content of the bushcraft forum
- is it a Bushcraft forum or a Bushkit forum -
the reason I asked this is because around 80% of the information on it is all about knives and kit.
I did not go out of my way to offend Geograch, I merely responded to his comment which you can read for yourselves.
I thought the thread was civilised up to the point when Wayland accused me of navel watching so my reply was in kind.
Anyway lets not all jump into this and miss out on the point I'm try to raise and bring the thread down in the process.

So I will quote Gregorach again, because I think the comments he made here is a very good example of exactly what I meant.

QUOTE Gregorach
"I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit".

Now is there any experienced Mods or practising Bushcrafters on here that actually agree with this?

 

[Fenlander]

Fenlander I noticed you came in to this thread with a positive post and I checked out your site (great site by the way) what do you think? as you are a practitioner of Bushcraft and primitive skills.
Just look at the number of posts in edged tools and kit chatter, you'll see what I'm trying to say. What ever the subject topic the conversation always turns around to kit.

The forum certainly does seem to be dominated by kit chatter these days.

A knife for me is just a tool used to achieve a required result, be it a shelter or tooth pick.

I still carry more kit than I need , but rarely carry kit i don't use.

Whenever I'm out now, whether it's for a night or a few days, I deliberately leave something I know I will need behind. This forces me to either use natural resources or adapt another item in my bag to achieve the required result. By doing this, I'm stepping out of my "comfort zone" and relying on my skills, knowledge and imagination to provide what I need. I am now starting to realise that some items of kit I thought I could'n't do without, I actually can.

There are always new things to be learnt by practicing skills and experimenting. Rich59 is a great example of this. At the summer moot he turned up in a t-shirt, jeans and trainers, carrying a small rucksack and Swedish army knife. Yet with only very basic equipment, his workshops, based on experience and experimentation were an inspiration to us all, be it the forearm bow-drill bow or the wet tinder tube.

I know from experience that PatrickM's kit is very limited, but just look at what he achieves

I personally would like to see more of what people do or produce with their kit, rather than read about the kit itself.

I always carry a piece of flat chainsaw file (as a steel) and a piece of flint in this buckskin neck pouch, for fire starting.

[/IMG]

Using the piece of flint and the file as an abrasive I made this bone awl and needle.

[/IMG]

Using the bone awl and needle I've now made these birch bark containers (but not the cup ).

[/IMG]

I used to carry a metal awl, a larger file and a "traditional flint steel striker".

 

[ArkAngel]

Hold on guys, I am not out to offend anyone nor burst anyone's perception of what bushcraft is or how they go about it.
I simply asked about the content of the bushcraft forum
- is it a Bushcraft forum or a Bushkit forum -
the reason I asked this is because around 80% of the information on it is all about knives and kit.
I did not go out of my way to offend Geograch, I merely responded to his comment which you can read for yourselves.
I thought the thread was civilised up to the point when Wayland accused me of navel watching so my reply was in kind.
Anyway lets not all jump into this and miss out on the point I'm try to raise and bring the thread down in the process.

So I will quote Gregorach again, because I think the comments he made here is a very good example of exactly what I meant.

QUOTE Gregorach
"I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit".

Now is there any experienced Mods or practising Bushcrafters on here that actually agree with this?

Ok so what is your peception/definition of a 'practising bushcrafter'?

I think that everyone on this forum from the survival school/bushcraft instructors to the armchair Ray Mears fans practise bushcraft in their own way.
Even the armchair bushcrafters have a valid claim to be practising as they will be learning just by watching.
It is all about the knowledge carried with you. People have survived in situations by watching films of an outdoor nature and applying what they have learnt in that situation, maybe not to the comfort level that some people on here could but surviving never the less.

Yes we are all guilty of fixating on kit and shiney things but as we have said before the provision is made for the more traditional crafts.
We have a "kit" forum and a "knife" forum. Yes they see more traffic than most but that still leaves the flora and fauna, traditional crafts, out and about sections for the people who want to post in there.

It is the same on the airgun BBS. Kit, rifles, scopes and pellets are discussed far more than the technicalities of actually how to shoot.

Everyone on this site is a practising bushcrafter in their own way. If a little kit fixated but that is the western way of things. I feel confident in time that people will still talk endlessly about kit and shiney things but the other more traditional forums will still see a healthy percentage of traffic.

I am curious to understand what you intend to achieve by this post. I would think a good number of us would agree that our posts can be a bit kit heavy but most of us have an insight into this. It will not change the way we practise our interpretation of bushcraft or suddenly make us realise "oh no we have lost our way, remove the knife forum and kit forum immediately please Tony"

**edit** Having just read Fenlanders post it illustrates my point perfectly. I am in awe of people who can create home made/traditional kit like this. I enjoy looking at it and watching people discuss how it is made. But i never intend to make it myself, to be honest i dont' have the room, the technical know how or the inclination. It will never replace my knife and the modern kit i use, but all credit to the people who do use it.

PS. That last bit about removing the forums may sound a bit sarcastic i have just realised. It is not meant to be, i'm just curious where you are going with this

 

[madrussian]

Fenlander you are the man. :notworthy Do you have step by step pictures of how you made these items? If not, it would be great if you could put something together for us.

 

[Zodiak]

I have been watching the old Tracks programmes, early Ray Mears and to be honest this is what Bushcraft is all about, don't you think.

Where did you see Tracks recently? I didn't see any of them first time round, and I didn't think they were available on DVD, Tape, You yube.. what ever..

 

[gregorach]

I did not go out of my way to offend Geograch, I merely responded to his comment which you can read for yourselves.

You haven't offended me at all.

So I will quote Gregorach again, because I think the comments he made here is a very good example of exactly what I meant.

QUOTE Gregorach
"I think part of it may be that it's easier to talk about kit than skills. There's only so much that can be said about making cordage, or friction fire, or whatever - whereas there's more or less an infinite amount you can say about kit".

Now is there any experienced Mods or practising Bushcrafters on here that actually agree with this?

I think you're reading more into that than I meant. I'm sorry that I didn't really make myself clear - I wrote it too quickly and without enough thought.

When I said there's a more or less infinite amount you can say about kit, what I was refering to was the huge variety available - there's always something new coming along, people are always looking to improve what they have, etc, etc. If you're thinking about buying something new, there's a heck of a lot of options to consider for just about anything.

When I said that there's only so much to be said about skills, what I meant was that beyond the basic points, it's very difficult to say anything useful on an internet forum. I could try and describe the proper posture for bow-drill til I'm blue in the fingers, but there's simply no substitute for doing it. Face-to-face, you can say "left foot back a bit", "right knee out more" or whatever. Doing it, you can feel how changing pressure and speed affects your drilling. You just can't effectively transmit skills in textual form.

However, I still don't agree with your basic premise - that this site is mainly about kit. I just don't think it's true over time. There may be an unusual amount of kit discussion going on now, but then it is kit maintenance season and it is coming up to Christmas.

Finally, I must point out that nobody's forcing you to read kit-related threads. If you ask good questions or post good information about whatever it is that you would like to see more of on the forums, I'm sure you'll get a good response.

 

[gregorach]

Where did you see Tracks recently? I didn't see any of them first time round, and I didn't think they were available on DVD, Tape, You yube.. what ever..

UK Documentary channel has been re-running them.

 

[oetzi]

For my kind of being outside, the one thing I will always do without, is a GPS.
I sell them, thats enough of it.
What I will do this winter, health permitting:
Walk out into the wood for some hours and sleep outside with sleepingbag, bivybag, tarp and gasstove.
I really hope that I can do this without anything in this ******* cadaver to break down again

 

[JonnyP]

Very interesting thread this.....I am more interested in the trade, than the tools of the trade, but I am not going to say, stop talking shineys to anyone. Bushcraft is a very broad subject and everyone is different, so lets live and let live. I am not having a go Firestarter, cos I agree with where you are comming from. I think if you want to see more on the skills, then just start a thread on what you are interested in, there are people out here who will help, or will share thoughts with you. Or do a search, there is a lot on here.
I am a kit junkie, but I am more interested in the nature around me, I love wildlife, I love getting out there and watching wildlife on my own or with my boy, but I love the social side of it too, and having a beer round the fire, while the hammock awaits me, if superb, esp when I can find the hammock after a few beers and don't have to sleep in a ditch.....

 

[Fire Starter]

Ok so what is your peception/definition of a 'practising bushcrafter'?

I think that everyone on this forum from the survival school/bushcraft instructors to the armchair Ray Mears fans practise bushcraft in their own way.
Even the armchair bushcrafters have a valid claim to be practising as they will be learning just by watching.
It is all about the knowledge carried with you. People have survived in situations by watching films of an outdoor nature and applying what they have learnt in that situation, maybe not to the comfort level that some people on here could but surviving never the less.

Yes we are all guilty of fixating on kit and shiney things but as we have said before the provision is made for the more traditional crafts.
We have a "kit" forum and a "knife" forum. Yes they see more traffic than most but that still leaves the flora and fauna, traditional crafts, out and about sections for the people who want to post in there.

It is the same on the airgun BBS. Kit, rifles, scopes and pellets are discussed far more than the technicalities of actually how to shoot.

Everyone on this site is a practising bushcrafter in their own way. If a little kit fixated but that is the western way of things. I feel confident in time that people will still talk endlessly about kit and shiney things but the other more traditional forums will still see a healthy percentage of traffic.

I am curious to understand what you intend to achieve by this post. I would think a good number of us would agree that our posts can be a bit kit heavy but most of us have an insight into this. It will not change the way we practise our interpretation of bushcraft or suddenly make us realise "oh no we have lost our way, remove the knife forum and kit forum immediately please Tony"

**edit** Having just read Fenlanders post it illustrates my point perfectly. I am in awe of people who can create home made/traditional kit like this. I enjoy looking at it and watching people discuss how it is made. But i never intend to make it myself, to be honest i dont' have the room, the technical know how or the inclination. It will never replace my knife and the modern kit i use, but all credit to the people who do use it.

PS. That last bit about removing the forums may sound a bit sarcastic i have just realised. It is not meant to be, i'm just curious where you are going with this

I have no agenda and I am not really going anywhere with this. I merely raised an observation and asked the question - Buscraft forum or Bushkit forum - in order to raise some awareness of what this site is all about. I feel I have made my point.

Respect to Fenlander, some good work there. So, whether you are into Bushcraft, Bushkit, or Bushcamping be careful out there and have fun.

Cheers

Fire Starter

 

[rik_uk3]

For my kind of being outside, the one thing I will always do without, is a GPS.
I sell them, thats enough of it.
What I will do this winter, health permitting:
Walk out into the wood for some hours and sleep outside with sleepingbag, bivybag, tarp and gasstove.
I really hope that I can do this without anything in this ******* cadaver to break down again

"Walk out into the wood for some hours and sleep outside with sleepingbag, bivybag, tarp and gasstove" , please not a gas stove, paraffin, petrol or a Trangia yes, gas no

 

[Zodiak]

UK Documentary channel has been re-running them.

Thanks

I missed it

 

[BOD]

Wow this thread is raising the temperature and has the risk of starting a fire by cyber space friction.

Firestarter, when I go bush I carry less kit than our BCUK "cup of tea" guru Stuart for 2 reasons - I am older and desperately want to minimise weight and I am less interested in kit than he is (unless it is lightweight kit) and he also is often testing and reviewing kit. he also like to listen to music and I am content with the sound of the jungle.

I can make shelter, cordage, a bow drill from woods I find in the jungle, make fire in teh jungle and I have other "survival" skills etc. Can't carve a spoon though

I am not a better bush carfter than him - I carry less by choice and I was happy that he pulled out teh US Air Force fire starter kit when the jungle was too wet to start a fire with traditional means.

Kit was good to have that night!

Bushcraft is many things

 

[TheGreenMan]

Inspired by Stuarts footnote "Success is not measured by what you have, but by what you can do without" I thought I would start a new thread.

It does seem to me that although this is a Bushcraft forum, 80% of the information is all about kit or kit related.
I was wondering if the true essence of Bushcraft is disappearing under a pile of knives and other kit.
I would love to see and read more bushcraft after all there are other sites dedicated to kit and knives that we could all visit.

I have been watching the old Tracks programmes, early Ray Mears and to be honest this is what Bushcraft is all about, don't you think. Everyone seems to have the kit but I do not read or see much bushcraft coming from all that kit.

I understand that you may want to take some kit with you to make life more comfortable whilst out in the woods practicing a new bushcraft skill but what about the nature? use of plants? trees? shelter building techniques? How to build a full fishing rig using only natural materials? That's the rant over.

Hello Fire Starter,

In short, the site handles both well. There are many forums on the site, Bushcraft Chatter and Kit Chatter are only two. Usage of any given forum will rise and fall, reflecting the nature of peoples varying interests, at different times. And if one looks at the two above, you will notice that the total number of posts to each of those forums are roughly on a par, but I really don’t want to get into a statistical thing here.

I’m not going to interpret your proposition for debate, as a negative criticism of those of us who tend toward the freaky end of the kit spectrum.

The only other thing that I would like to express, is that I have dislike of ‘bushcraft fascism’ that suggests that there is a definitive type bushcraft, and that all other types are inferior. Clearly, this is ‘tosh’. By the way, this is not aimed at anyone in particular, whether on or off the forums, it’s an observation only.

You are wicked Fire Starter

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[Stuart]

I'm Glad my signature has prompted some thought, though I never expected it to become the basis of a heated debate!

BOD's post has highlighted an interesting phenomenon, which unless you had seen BOD and myself in the jungle would be overlooked

Firestarter, when I go bush I carry less kit than our BCUK "cup of tea" guru Stuart for 2 reasons - I am older and desperately want to minimise weight and I am less interested in kit than he is (unless it is lightweight kit) and he also is often testing and reviewing kit. he also like to listen to music and I am content with the sound of the jungle.

I can make shelter, cordage, a bow drill from woods I find in the jungle, make fire in teh jungle and I have other "survival" skills etc. Can't carve a spoon though

I am not a better bush carfter than him - I carry less by choice and I was happy that he pulled out teh US Air Force fire starter kit when the jungle was too wet to start a fire with traditional means.

Kit was good to have that night!

when BOD states that he carrys less kit than me, he does so because he only carrys belt order webbing, where as I carry a 20lt backpack and two coke bottles:

now to most people a 20lt bag for a week in the jungle would be considered 'kit minimalist' , but to BOD it is more 'kit intensive' than preferred setup

likewise Jamit (iban) whilst accompanying us in the same jungle might consider BODs belt order overly 'kit intensive', he only carries a parang!

its all about your point of view and what makes BCUK so friendly is that all points of view are welcome here

 

[Glen]

A thought, I suspect that there is a corelation between those that are kit orientated and those that spend more time online and posting on an internet forum. If that is indead the case then getting a fair proportion of kit based post would go with the ( internet ) territory so to speak.

Also its easier to make a quick couple of lines post about a piece of kit than make a detailed post about a skill.

Taking those into acount BCUK, as a forum, seem very well balanced to me.