Read my post again regarding your local woods vs extreme conditions. There are tons of research available. Look at google scholar or pick-up any textile engineering book at your local university library.
Traditional fabrics
- Thread starter cockney greg
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Read my post again regarding your local woods vs extreme conditions. There are tons of research available. Look at google scholar or pick-up any textile engineering book at your local university library.
Well, I did read your post. I found it lacking any specific studies relating to your assertions. There are in fact numerous textile studies, just none of them which support the claims being asserted here (for example, in your post, research showing how much insulation wet wool retains when compared to dry wool, and how that compares to synthetic insulation such as fleece, Primaloft, Thermal Q, etc). If you have access to such research, which the rest of us here clearly do not, since we have had this question pop up hundreds of times with no one being able to provide said research, we would much appreciate it if you shared it with us. Until then we are sadly stuck doing nothing more than making boastful claim about our experiences.
There you go again, using emotive terms like "boastful".
I know many of the people that have posted on this thread personally and a more modest, self effacing bunch I would struggle to find.
For the most part, as a nation, we Brits tend to understate our experiences rather than boast about them. It's just our nature.
In Scandinavia I would have to say they tend to be even more reserved. If someone there tells you it's "a bit cold" it's probably life threatening at least.
Looking through this thread, most people that have expressed a preference for natural materials also clearly acknowledge that synthetics function well in certain conditions and have their place.
I can only comment on my own experience, which few would describe as just "backyard" and while I would agree that synthetics will perform well enough to support life in extreme conditions, for comfort in SUB ZERO CONDITIONS (Note the title of this forum.) and extended expeditions, I would choose natural materials more often than not.
I know many of the people that have posted on this thread personally and a more modest, self effacing bunch I would struggle to find.
For the most part, as a nation, we Brits tend to understate our experiences rather than boast about them. It's just our nature.
In Scandinavia I would have to say they tend to be even more reserved. If someone there tells you it's "a bit cold" it's probably life threatening at least.
Looking through this thread, most people that have expressed a preference for natural materials also clearly acknowledge that synthetics function well in certain conditions and have their place.
I can only comment on my own experience, which few would describe as just "backyard" and while I would agree that synthetics will perform well enough to support life in extreme conditions, for comfort in SUB ZERO CONDITIONS (Note the title of this forum.) and extended expeditions, I would choose natural materials more often than not.
Well - it may not be sub zero today but it is raw wet cold!
I am in the middle of a 1st aid course that is being run from a very draughty, unheated barn and with there being lots of "scenarios" to play out there will be lots of laying about in the wind and damp, sitting around listening to the instructor etc etc.
My clothing choice for today is - Woolpower long sleeve top under a Swanni shirt, Merino lined wax cotton Gilet, Wool BuffWW2 style German peaked cap, Merino thermal leggings, 5.11 cotton combat trousers, Woolpower socks, Leather UnderArmor boots, Ventile Jacket and an MOD poncho for heavy rain or as a groundsheet.
A canvas and leather rucksack completes the outfit
If I am not cozy warm and dry with that set up I would be surprised to say the least - trad and synthetics selected for comfort in the situation and conditions prevailing
I am in the middle of a 1st aid course that is being run from a very draughty, unheated barn and with there being lots of "scenarios" to play out there will be lots of laying about in the wind and damp, sitting around listening to the instructor etc etc.
My clothing choice for today is - Woolpower long sleeve top under a Swanni shirt, Merino lined wax cotton Gilet, Wool BuffWW2 style German peaked cap, Merino thermal leggings, 5.11 cotton combat trousers, Woolpower socks, Leather UnderArmor boots, Ventile Jacket and an MOD poncho for heavy rain or as a groundsheet.
A canvas and leather rucksack completes the outfit
If I am not cozy warm and dry with that set up I would be surprised to say the least - trad and synthetics selected for comfort in the situation and conditions prevailing
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I suppose we are all free to judge each other's experience, or lack thereof, as we see fit. After all, the internet, even for Brits, is hardly lacking in unsupported claims. We each have to decide for ourselves whose claims we trust and whose claims be believe are just hot air.
I have stated in virtually every comment I have made in this thread that under certain conditions natural materials work just fine. Apparently for some reason, you chose to focus on every other statement regarding how some people do not travel through the woods, or make unverifiable claims about their experience with respect to the woods. The focus is curious considering I have not named a single name, or even hinted at who those people might be, or even implied that they are members on this forum.
That however completely dodges the actual discussion here. You can take offense to my use of emotive terms, or more exactly what you see as emotive terms (some things hit closer to home for some than for others), but that data does not make. Whether you like me as a person, or like the way I speak, or how I write, has very little effect on the insulating ability of any material we have been discussing here. Attacking me based on my attitude, or the terminology I use seems to be a poor substitute to actually debating the substance of the argument.
We are still to have anyone here present any scientific evidence which would support the claims being made. I know, I know, science does not matter, it is the work of the devil, etc. That being said, Big_Swede asserted that he is in possession of copious amounts of precisely such studies. I think it would be wonderful if he shared them with us, so we can all study them and learn. I think it would greatly reduce the number of these threads if one of us ever produced any tangible, verifiable evidence.
Oh, and just as a side note on the "title of this forum", it's -15C outside where I am right now. Please excuse my confusion regarding the question, but not all of the members here seem to share your interpretation. Some have chosen to disregard my comments because all my experiences were based on SUB ZERO environments, while others, like yourself, insist that those are the only ones that matter. If you would like, I would be happy to provide some "sub zero" pictures as well if it would help the discussion.
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this thread highlights just how much clothing has changed over the years and what a vast choice we have nowadays. I have to chuckle when i think of pre 1950s clothing when the suit type jacket seemed to be worn by just about everyone, climbers/farmers/countryfolk and townfolk alike.
There is nothing like climbing Everest in a dress shirt and a scarf tucked into your coat. Those were tough men back then.
The picture is of Conrad Anker and Leo Holding's 1999 attempt to summit Everest in Mallory's clothing.
I think that the only person here saying that is you, and I wish you'd stop. Quite a few of the people who have contributed to this thread have a scientific background, or at least a degree in a science subject.
I've read one study in the properties of wool that showed that dry wool releases heat when it is first wetted. Not a lot of use when it comes to a prolonged trip, I know.
Here is a paper from new zealand wool board. It has tables showing interesting information about the performance of wool vs other fibres. At the end are the cited scientific studies.
http://www.campaignforwool.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/MERINO-FOR-PERFORMANCE-ACTIVEWEAR.pdf
well, on the first point, just read up the thread. We've had several exchanges on the value of scientific data, with some members either alleging such studies are falsified by modern corporations, or simply that they do not matter. Thank you for the study. I don't know if it was you, but I know someone posted it here the last time we were discussing the issue.
We also have two other studies that I've linked to here. One compares traditional wool and canvas clothingv to modern cold weather clothing, and the other compares energy expenditure when using such clothing. I also have a chart comparing Polartec to wool to cotton insulation per weight, but I don't have more details on the study, so I have not shared it.
Based on those limited studies, it appears that for dry materials, wool provides better insulation per weight than cotton, and worse insulation per weight than fleece (I imagine it depends on the type), Primaloft, Thermal Q, etc.
As far as how those comparisons change when the materials are wet, like you, I have been able to find almost nothing. I remember seeing a US Army study saying that because wool dries more slowly, it gives less of an immediate chill, but overall, lost similar insulation value as the other materials tested (it was nothing I recognized).
I look forward to seeing what big_swede is going to give us.
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The affect (and description of the mechanism) is in the link I provided.
A summary is this: The surface of each wool fibre repels water. The core absorbs water. During the adsorption phase the fibre gives off heat. Once saturated, it retains the water, ceases giving off heat but because the surface of each fibre repels water, there is no water (or damp fabric) held against the skin. This gives the 'comfort' feeling noted by people wearing wool in wet conditions.
Like several people here, I think it is horses for courses. I love pertex and pile garments, but they aren't suitable for some activities whilst being superb for others (ocean sailing, for example). I wouldn't want to carry a sleeping bag made of wool; give me back my buffalo bag, thank you very much.
Surprisingly for a townie who is an office worker, I have year round constant experience of using 'technical' fabrics outdoors. This is because I commute a long distance by bicycle, in all weathers. Based on my experience in weather from summer rains, winter rain at sub-zero temperatures and -19C dry days, (years of experience) I'd rather wear wool as a base layer and have synthetic windproof tops.
For example, (and I'm sure I've posted this before), on very cold winter days I use a buff pulled up round my chin and over my nose to breath through. If I do this with a synthetic buff, it freezes to my skin. The merino wool one doesn't freeze to my skin.
A summary is this: The surface of each wool fibre repels water. The core absorbs water. During the adsorption phase the fibre gives off heat. Once saturated, it retains the water, ceases giving off heat but because the surface of each fibre repels water, there is no water (or damp fabric) held against the skin. This gives the 'comfort' feeling noted by people wearing wool in wet conditions.
Like several people here, I think it is horses for courses. I love pertex and pile garments, but they aren't suitable for some activities whilst being superb for others (ocean sailing, for example). I wouldn't want to carry a sleeping bag made of wool; give me back my buffalo bag, thank you very much.
Surprisingly for a townie who is an office worker, I have year round constant experience of using 'technical' fabrics outdoors. This is because I commute a long distance by bicycle, in all weathers. Based on my experience in weather from summer rains, winter rain at sub-zero temperatures and -19C dry days, (years of experience) I'd rather wear wool as a base layer and have synthetic windproof tops.
For example, (and I'm sure I've posted this before), on very cold winter days I use a buff pulled up round my chin and over my nose to breath through. If I do this with a synthetic buff, it freezes to my skin. The merino wool one doesn't freeze to my skin.
If that is my post you are referring to, please go and read it again.
I was quite clear; science is funded. Modern textiles advertise by quoting statistics. Traditional fabrics do not have such hype attached.
Statistics are only as valid as their interpretation.
It's all very well to claim that you will believe the science that is presented to you by the companies with a vested interest in selling you garments, but like the bare naked king, one needs to apply a little discriminating thought to it too.
I don't think a single person here has said that modern fabrics do not have their use and their place in our modern lifestyles. Many of us however make the quite deliberate choice to buy traditional fabrics, to wear them, to work in them, and we do so despite being quite able to acquire modern textiles.
It's our choice. It is our definite perception that they are more comfortable in wear.
As has been said, also very clearly, each to their own.
Your persistant niggling is becoming irritating. Basically your message is not being heard over the sound of your repeated protestations that we're not being 'scientific' about our research
Science is a very wonderful thing but it bears objective interpretation. Then again, it could be argued that your attempted objectivity is negated by our subjective comfort.
Toddy....soaked again, third time today, and my goretex is wet and cold
but my head and feet are warm in my wool socks and hat
Cuppa; time for. I even have a Tunnock's wafer to go with it
I was quite clear; science is funded. Modern textiles advertise by quoting statistics. Traditional fabrics do not have such hype attached.
Statistics are only as valid as their interpretation.
It's all very well to claim that you will believe the science that is presented to you by the companies with a vested interest in selling you garments, but like the bare naked king, one needs to apply a little discriminating thought to it too.
I don't think a single person here has said that modern fabrics do not have their use and their place in our modern lifestyles. Many of us however make the quite deliberate choice to buy traditional fabrics, to wear them, to work in them, and we do so despite being quite able to acquire modern textiles.
It's our choice. It is our definite perception that they are more comfortable in wear.
As has been said, also very clearly, each to their own.
Your persistant niggling is becoming irritating. Basically your message is not being heard over the sound of your repeated protestations that we're not being 'scientific' about our research
Science is a very wonderful thing
but it bears objective interpretation. Then again, it could be argued that your attempted objectivity is negated by our subjective comfort.Toddy....soaked again, third time today, and my goretex is wet and cold
but my head and feet are warm in my wool socks and hat Cuppa; time for. I even have a Tunnock's wafer to go with it
Plenty of people like wool base layers. They work well in that role for the reason you mentioned, and the slower drying time is not as big of a deal because the materials are so thin. BackpackingLight did a good study on drying times. I can share it if anyone is interested. The result was that the wool base layer dry out about 50% slower than the synthetic they used, but it's not that huge of a deal because the fabrics were so thin. Of course that changes with thicker items.
I also use a wool buff (because I like the design), but on one of my recent trips it did freeze solid, which lead me to get some frostbite. That's the first time I have that issue though. The slow drying time was a problem because I was not able to dry it in my sleeping bag for the next day.
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I also use a wool buff (because I like the design), but on one of my recent trips it did freeze solid, which lead me to get some frostbite. That's the first time I have that issue though. The slow drying time was a problem because I was not able to dry it in my sleeping bag for the next day.
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Toddy, yours is just one of the exchanges to which I was referring.
That being said, as I have stated over and over again, I don't care about how people select their clothing. To each his own. I can not make you select clothing based on data or scientific research, and I have zero interest in doing so. Wear whatever you like based on whatever factors matter to you-feel, appearance, emotional connection to the past, etc.
What I do mind is when we make factual assertions that either contradicts the data we have, or lack any data to support them. When such assertions are made, I feel strongly that such lack of support should be pointed out. I know there is nothing that can be said or presented that will change YOUR mind, but there are many people reading this who may find actual data valuable.
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That being said, as I have stated over and over again, I don't care about how people select their clothing. To each his own. I can not make you select clothing based on data or scientific research, and I have zero interest in doing so. Wear whatever you like based on whatever factors matter to you-feel, appearance, emotional connection to the past, etc.
What I do mind is when we make factual assertions that either contradicts the data we have, or lack any data to support them. When such assertions are made, I feel strongly that such lack of support should be pointed out. I know there is nothing that can be said or presented that will change YOUR mind, but there are many people reading this who may find actual data valuable.
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I think most of us value hard research/science. However, you need to remember a few of points;
1. Absence of evidence does NOT equal evidence of absence.
2. When a vendor promotes research they will often specify the area of the research to bias towards their products strengths.
3. All kit is a trade off. It then depends how those trade offs suit your purposes/body (we're not all the same).
Keep an open mind and try not to get sucked into 'fashion' of any sort
ps. good debate
Keep an open mind and try not to get sucked into 'fashion' of any sort
best advice yet, though i suspect many people are more fashionable than they admit.
@ Toddy:
Do you have any hard scientific data to back up your implication that a cuppa with a Tunnocks is delicious? Or is this just more rampant subjectivity?
Where's your evidence, woman?
In my tummy
M
I think most of us value hard research/science. However, you need to remember a few of points;
1. Absence of evidence does NOT equal evidence of absence.
2. When a vendor promotes research they will often specify the area of the research to bias towards their products strengths.
3. All kit is a trade off. It then depends how those trade offs suit your purposes/body (we're not all the same).
Keep an open mind and try not to get sucked into 'fashion' of any sort
ps. good debate
all fair points.And by the way, I don't think there is anything wrong with fashion either. If people want to chose their outdoor clothing based on how it makes them feel, or because they think it makes them look more "bushcrafty", or whatever, then good for them.
But, as I said, when we start making factual assertions which contradict the data we have, or lack any supporting evidence, then it becomes a problem for me.
I have no issue with someone saying "I like wool clothing because it feels warmer to me when I get wet". I also don't have an issue with a statement like "I like wearing wool clothing because I respect the woodsmen from the past and this makes me feel closer to them".
I do however have a problem with a statement like "Wool stays warm when it is wet", or "Synthetic fabrics are not as strong as natural ones", etc.
The first set of statements is a matter of subjective opinion. The second set contains factual assertions which are verifiable. Data is data, and it either supports an assertion or it does not. I am a bit perplexed as to why there is so much outrage from some people at the simple request that we provide supporting scientific data about facts we are asserting about the physical properties of certain materials.
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At the last south east bcuk meet i spent the whole weekend in nothing but a poly base layer, cotton t shirt and unidentified wool-polymix jumper. Others were in down gillets, windproofs, coats etc, its all horses for courses, who cares if i look like Tom from the good life.....😄 mind you a beard means youre 10 degrees warmer anyway....thats the best traditional fabric. 😉
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