Traditional fabrics
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You are absolutely right. That is why when we talk about what is "better" we have to specify what exactly we are talking about. I think I made it very clear in my earlier posts what characteristics I value and why. If someone doesn't care about those same characteristics, then naturally my choice will not be very informative for them.
That being said, it doesn't mean we can't be very accurate in our comparison with respect to specific characteristics. We can certainly determine which material is more waterproof, which material is more fire resistant, which material provides higher insulation per weight, which material is stronger, etc. Those things are not subjective in and of themselves. After we have those comparisons, a person can pick and chose a material based on which of those characteristics matter more for the outdoor trip they are undertaking.
Yes, but I suspect the factors which persuade us to buy outdoor clothes are not so much influenced by statistics on such qualities as waterproofness, tensile strength, warm to weight ratios but how suitable we feel the clothes will be for what we want them to do and how well they fit the image we have of ourselves. The stats help, I admit, but they never tell the whole story about a piece of clothing. Feel is much more important and cannot be measured as it is personal to each individual.
Well, I make sure the clothing fits me, but otherwise I do go by scientific research. For example, I use a Primaloft One fill jacket rather than a Primaloft Sport jacket because it has higher insulation per weight. I wear GoreTex instead of s Perez shell because one is waterproof, while the other is only water resistant. I wear the specific shell jacket I wear because it offered the lightest strength to weight ratio for a fully waterproof jacket, etc.
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*Pertex (sorry, auto correct on my phone).
Treadlightly, I think you highlight a very important difference between some members on this forum. Some of us do in fact base our gear and clothing choices based on research, testing, and data. Others do it based on what image they like to portray, how something makes them feel, etc. There is no way to reconcile those two approaches when we are discussing what item of clothing one should wear.
I also strongly believe that the further out one gets into the woods, and the more difficult the trip, the more one has to rely on data when selecting gear, rather than on emotions.
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Treadlightly, I think you highlight a very important difference between some members on this forum. Some of us do in fact base our gear and clothing choices based on research, testing, and data. Others do it based on what image they like to portray, how something makes them feel, etc. There is no way to reconcile those two approaches when we are discussing what item of clothing one should wear.
I also strongly believe that the further out one gets into the woods, and the more difficult the trip, the more one has to rely on data when selecting gear, rather than on emotions.
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That's true. But to me you seem to mention people in the "woods behind the house" a lot, which to me it seems you are suggesting that's what most people do. Everyone's different, it's not what I do, especially when canoeing, we go into the middle of nowhere, seeing no one the whole time we are there.
As someone on here (can't remember who?) said we aren't made of sugar, a bit of water isn't terrible as long as you have shelter and the means to make fire to dry off or let things air dry at night.
An experience of mine also is that no single garment I've ever used (many that is) no single one has been both 100% waterproof and 100% breathable, it's mainly been one or the other.
I'm for the 17th and 18th century way, I like traditional gear and If most of America and other parts of the world were mapped and discovered with that gear, I'm sure it'll still work now.
Just my two pence and I'm by no means an expert, just my opinions and experiences.
Haha Cameron, that was my Grans phrase when we didn't want to get out from here feet on a wet day "You're not made of sugar - OUT!"
Like you having worked outdoors for years it was what level of comfort one expects to have for a given task. If you're felling trees with an axe you wont be dry even when it's not raining. But levels of exertion, well thought out gear that works with you will see you comfortable. I always thought it was over egging the pudding to make a claim like "Guaranteed to keep you dry!"... Oh you think so! But it really is finding what works for you. I like Paramo as an outer if it's piddling down - but if I sit or kneel down I will get wet at point of contact. But the water is encouraged to come away from you when you get up again so regaining comfort. GTX will keep you dry from pressure contact but it doesn't breath well enough for me even with the correct layering so I don't use it as I try not to lie down too much - unless it's really steep
! Wool is comfy for me when wet; but so is fleece - but the fleece burns easily and smells, and I spend a good time around a wee fire when I'm out. Also like you I just like more retro gear these days now that I'm not off on expedition. When they found Mallory's body on Everest the studies they did of the fragments of his clothing looked to prove that he would have been as warm and comfortable and only slightly heavier in weight. We just don't generally make that quality of woven fabric in natural fibres that often these days. But if you search around you can get decent boiled wool, lodden, tweed, oiled wool, silk, ventile etc. But WL Gore and Co do make good garments too, just not to my specs or tastes for what I want these days.
A hit! a hit, a postive hit
I take it back Ross, and are you warm in that get up? are you safe near the fires ? and is your kit unripped and unsnagged in the jaggy bushes ? My plastic stuff most certainly wasn't. I wasn't joking about getting very good at patching the blooming stuff, or the sweat rashes from the fleece or the chill in the damp when stopped for a bit.
As I said, each to their own, but don't denigrate those who do not share your choice by claiming no 'research'. Practical hands on experience is the best research. Most of us have chosen accordingly too
cheers,
M
I take it back Ross, and are you warm in that get up? are you safe near the fires ? and is your kit unripped and unsnagged in the jaggy bushes ? My plastic stuff most certainly wasn't. I wasn't joking about getting very good at patching the blooming stuff, or the sweat rashes from the fleece
or the chill in the damp when stopped for a bit.As I said, each to their own, but don't denigrate those who do not share your choice by claiming no 'research'. Practical hands on experience is the best research. Most of us have chosen accordingly too
cheers,
M
Rain coming straight down doesn't count It's only the horizontal stuff that qualifies;
An oilskin day
It's only the horizontal stuff that qualifies;An oilskin day
Hi folks, I spend quite a lot of time in the outdoors, at one stage last year I had been out for 42 days continuous before coming in. In that time it hammered down and made my place of work look like it was auditioning for a part as the Somme with trees, we had gale force winds and we had sunshine that reminded me of places overseas.
I wear a lot of clothing made from natural materials because of it's robustness around fire and when dealing with mother nature's many aspects of flora (thorns, brambles and the like) and fauna (it's nice to track and watch wildlife in something that doesn't sound like a crisp packet).
I do believe that the situation dictates what you wear though, if it's hammering down put on a waterproof synthetic jacket and trousers if necessary, add and remove clothing to fit the situation, that's what the layers system is all about.
The other thing that annoys me about this is that why should it be about synthetic vs natural?
Down jackets are perfect examples of synthetic and natural being used in a way that proves a symbiotic relationship between the two, the situation dictates there's no point in wearing one in the Saharan sun, at night on the other hand when the temperature drops you may consider it.
The situation dictates what's best and when to wear synthetic / natural and the combinations of both.
I tend to wear wool or cotton base layers for longer trips, synthetic trousers (lightweights, TARS or craghoppers) and a ventile top either a double or single layer dependant on time of year, but I also have heavy woollen tops that I use around fires in the winter instead of a down jacket, but I also have a down jacket that I use when fires die down and synthetic waterproof when it's tipping down and a synthetic gilet that can be worn under a ventile.
I don't say use one or the other, but rather use one to compliment the other for whatever situation you find yourself in.
I wear a lot of clothing made from natural materials because of it's robustness around fire and when dealing with mother nature's many aspects of flora (thorns, brambles and the like) and fauna (it's nice to track and watch wildlife in something that doesn't sound like a crisp packet).
I do believe that the situation dictates what you wear though, if it's hammering down put on a waterproof synthetic jacket and trousers if necessary, add and remove clothing to fit the situation, that's what the layers system is all about.
The other thing that annoys me about this is that why should it be about synthetic vs natural?
Down jackets are perfect examples of synthetic and natural being used in a way that proves a symbiotic relationship between the two, the situation dictates there's no point in wearing one in the Saharan sun, at night on the other hand when the temperature drops you may consider it.
The situation dictates what's best and when to wear synthetic / natural and the combinations of both.
I tend to wear wool or cotton base layers for longer trips, synthetic trousers (lightweights, TARS or craghoppers) and a ventile top either a double or single layer dependant on time of year, but I also have heavy woollen tops that I use around fires in the winter instead of a down jacket, but I also have a down jacket that I use when fires die down and synthetic waterproof when it's tipping down and a synthetic gilet that can be worn under a ventile.
I don't say use one or the other, but rather use one to compliment the other for whatever situation you find yourself in.
A hit! a hit, a postive hit
I take it back Ross, and are you warm in that get up? are you safe near the fires ? and is your kit unripped and unsnagged in the jaggy bushes ? My plastic stuff most certainly wasn't. I wasn't joking about getting very good at patching the blooming stuff, or the sweat rashes from the fleece
As I said, each to their own, but don't denigrate those who do not share your choice by claiming no 'research'. Practical hands on experience is the best research. Most of us have chosen accordingly too
cheers,
M
I've been warm and comfortable for the past 13 years in the clothing that I have worn. All my clothing has lasted without an issue, even when pheasant hunting waste deep in thorn bushes (I can provide pictures). Not a single issue around fires either.
For a while I even wore wool and canvas. That is how I reached the conclusion that those materials don't work well for what I do. Of course, my personal experiences directly contradict yours, so that leaves us with a dilemma.
That is why we need independent, scientific testing. Saying that none exists on a subject is not an insult, it is just a fact. On many aspects of clothing properties, we can actually obtain such data. We can then chose to use that data to inform our choices, or we can ignore it in favor of other considerations.
Like I said before, I believe that the further one goes into the woods and the longer they stay there, the more important it becomes that the choices are made based on data rather than emotions or "feel".
On the other hand, if one has no interest in doing that, then like I said before, it doesn't matter what materials we chose. If the goal is to car camp, or hang out in the woods behind the house, or walk the dog, or garden, it can easily be done with any type of clothing including our pajamas.
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Independant scientific testing just doesn't happen.
I'm technically a scientist; it all needs funding. Plus, at the end of the day, science gives results, but it's the interpretation of those results that is critical, and that's why peer review is a vital part of the process. Peer review though is in itself subjective.....after all, who do you choose to review your data ?
On a topic such as this, where everyone is different, everyone is subjective, everyone has different lives, there are very, very, few definites.
Thing is though, where most of us are happy to say that there are benefits to almost all fibres, you come across as truly negative about naturals. Funny how we've only had plastic clothing since the last war, yet people have managed quite happily on this earth with natural fibres for quite literally millenia.
As I said, each to their own. I know that my lifestyle wrecks plastic kit. I do own it, I do wear it, but I'm very choosey of where I wear it.
cheers,
Toddy
I'm technically a scientist; it all needs funding. Plus, at the end of the day, science gives results, but it's the interpretation of those results that is critical, and that's why peer review is a vital part of the process. Peer review though is in itself subjective.....after all, who do you choose to review your data ?
On a topic such as this, where everyone is different, everyone is subjective, everyone has different lives, there are very, very, few definites.
Thing is though, where most of us are happy to say that there are benefits to almost all fibres, you come across as truly negative about naturals. Funny how we've only had plastic clothing since the last war, yet people have managed quite happily on this earth with natural fibres for quite literally millenia.
As I said, each to their own. I know that my lifestyle wrecks plastic kit. I do own it, I do wear it, but I'm very choosey of where I wear it.
cheers,
Toddy
The repeated phrase behind the house or car camping could come across as a little patronising you know?
I appreciate from your post on this thread and several others that you arent a fan of natural materials or wool blankets thats cool thats your choice. I myself prefer natural materials. I don't tend to hike for miles each day nor do I summit mountains (good report btw) I tend to amble for an hour or so and then establish base camp.
Were I to do the distances you cover I may reassess what I use. But I dont. Its not what interests me.
leon has a point there doesnt need to be a synthetic vs natural divide it should be a blend of the most suitable equipment for the job in hand
I appreciate from your post on this thread and several others that you arent a fan of natural materials or wool blankets thats cool thats your choice. I myself prefer natural materials. I don't tend to hike for miles each day nor do I summit mountains (good report btw) I tend to amble for an hour or so and then establish base camp.
Were I to do the distances you cover I may reassess what I use. But I dont. Its not what interests me.
leon has a point there doesnt need to be a synthetic vs natural divide it should be a blend of the most suitable equipment for the job in hand
I hear you Ross, and as Toddy says, each to their own.
I don't think I'm that far away from your own thinking on clothing, but I have to admit to having revised my own ideas over the years.
My bushcraft thing is combined with other pursuits, I don't go out bushcrafting, rather it's something thats part of the greater experience.
I've tried most clothing combinations in my time. I got sucked into trying various technical clothing at one time or another but I've gone back to what I started out in for most stuff. My days of adventuring are largely behind me, unless there's the promise of pristine fly fishing at the other end; in which case I could be tempted.
When I started climbing I had to use what I was given or could borrow, my grandmother bought me a set of damart thermals (yes, as worn by grannies), my mother a woolen shirt and knee length britches. I hated it, I wanted all the new kit featured in magazines like "mountain" or "climber & rambler" etc. So, when I got the cash thats what I did, I was fully synthetic for a good 15 years or so, right down to the boots.
About ten years ago I found my original woolen (bought by my mum) shirt, moth & mouse eaten and in pieces, in a box. I was harking back to feeling like I was wearing clothes, I just feel vulnerable and naked in modern kit. It's good it works but I don't feel as if I've got enough on. I searched far and wide for a replacement shirt with long enough sleeves. I found one, after a couple of false starts and started using it. Combined with various other garments I finally settled on a synthetic base layer wool shirt and wool/synthetic sweater/jacket, which, funnily enough, is where I started out (but without the garnny thermals). The woolen shirt can be seen in this picture, if you click the image. I can't find a photo featuring the the old ventile climbing jacket, thats in the bag;
Has to be said, I did have an early Rab 500g down sleeping bag which was cutting edge at the time, that was in the bag too, slept in it on that hill that night, while my mate was in a down jacket with his feet in his rucksack, shivering. I was 17, and that was July 1983.
These days I'm heading into the hills in very similar kit to that, although the britches are full length now
I don't think I'm that far away from your own thinking on clothing, but I have to admit to having revised my own ideas over the years.
My bushcraft thing is combined with other pursuits, I don't go out bushcrafting, rather it's something thats part of the greater experience.
I've tried most clothing combinations in my time. I got sucked into trying various technical clothing at one time or another but I've gone back to what I started out in for most stuff. My days of adventuring are largely behind me, unless there's the promise of pristine fly fishing at the other end; in which case I could be tempted.
When I started climbing I had to use what I was given or could borrow, my grandmother bought me a set of damart thermals (yes, as worn by grannies
), my mother a woolen shirt and knee length britches. I hated it, I wanted all the new kit featured in magazines like "mountain" or "climber & rambler" etc. So, when I got the cash thats what I did, I was fully synthetic for a good 15 years or so, right down to the boots.About ten years ago I found my original woolen (bought by my mum) shirt, moth & mouse eaten and in pieces, in a box. I was harking back to feeling like I was wearing clothes, I just feel vulnerable and naked in modern kit. It's good it works but I don't feel as if I've got enough on. I searched far and wide for a replacement shirt with long enough sleeves. I found one, after a couple of false starts and started using it. Combined with various other garments I finally settled on a synthetic base layer wool shirt and wool/synthetic sweater/jacket, which, funnily enough, is where I started out (but without the garnny thermals). The woolen shirt can be seen in this picture, if you click the image. I can't find a photo featuring the the old ventile climbing jacket, thats in the bag;
Has to be said, I did have an early Rab 500g down sleeping bag which was cutting edge at the time, that was in the bag too, slept in it on that hill that night, while my mate was in a down jacket with his feet in his rucksack, shivering. I was 17, and that was July 1983.
These days I'm heading into the hills in very similar kit to that, although the britches are full length now
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That looks like a Nevisport shirt ...
I had one very similar, and Derby Tweed britches
Happy days
I had one very similar, and Derby Tweed britches
Happy days
That looks like a Nevisport shirt ...
I had one very similar, and Derby Tweed britches
Happy days
I think you could be right John, I think it was.
Didn't do the tweed breeks though, although I have several tweed jackets these days. They get an outing when I'm doing officecraft, I don't do the suits
I think we greatly disagree about the value of research. I believe things like clo value, waterproofness, etc are easily testable and independently comfirmable. I would rather rely on such research than personal opinion because as you can see, you and I have worn the same types of clothing yet our experiences are the opposite.
Otherwise, I am not against natural materials at all. I've worn them in the past and I continue to wear them. I simply do not believe they are the best choice for certain applications. I'm pretty sure I have said that repeatedly in th his thread. Perhaps it is a matter of opinion. For example, my opinion of your posts here has been that you are completely against synthetics, and have taken every opportunity you've had to challenge people who have made that choice.
Perhaps we all see what we want to see. That is why I would rather rely on scientific research than the subjective opinions of some person on the internet.
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I'm not sure I can add too much that hasn't already been covered. Like most I own the mixture. One place it does have to be natural is ther mals always merino. If I'm moving fast and climbing/ heavy scrambling it has always been a synthetic shell- I have a rohan jacket and waterproof trousers that shed water like nothing I've ever seen before. However underneath on top there might be a down jacket but below those top layers for better or worse it's been naturals for the last few years. For most other activities its naturals- I have one paranoia jacket that is probably tough enough for most things but if I'm shifting logs, slashing and burning, building shelters/ hides with my son its naturals all the way. I need to try ventile before I can really judge it. The one argument for traditional fabrics is obviously the way they handle dirt- which after all can have a very negative effect on synthetics?
The repeated phrase behind the house or car camping could come across as a little patronising you know?
That's not how it is intended. I'm happy with people camping however they like for whatever reason they like. As long as people have fun, that's all that matters.
However, we should not pretend that car camping in the local woods and climbing Denali are the same thing, or that they place the same burdens on clothing, fabrics, or gear.
Speaking about clothing or gear without specifying how it is being used is not productive in my opinion. That is why I specified what type of trips I was doing and along which factors I was choosing my clothing. Right now I'm at work and I am wearing clothing which is great for work (including a wool coat), but would not be much good in the woods.
I think we have to be aware of those differences and account for them when we speak about gear or clothing, especially when looking at people's personal experiences.
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