"Cotton Kills"

[Toddy]

….as ever, history is all too often a case of, "Our certain past was their very uncertain future". The past is a different country and though we may rationalise and demonise and idolise, we can never really visit it.

The world moves on, we can only hope that we make genuine attempts not to repeat our perceived mistakes of the past. That said, "History repeats itself; it has to, no one listens the first time".

M

 

[santaman2000]

….as ever, history is all too often a case of, "Our certain past was their very uncertain future". The past is a different country and though we may rationalise and demonise and idolise, we can never really visit it.....

Well said. I might add, nor can we change the past.

 

[pysen78]

Hi, all!
I keep meaning to respond ion this thread but work keeps getting in the way!! Anywho, I just wanted to amend to my earlier posts about cotton being the "obvious" choice for base layers before synthetics were invented, that while wool alternatives may exist, I've simply not come across it. That doesn't mean that they didn't exist. To me merino is great, but that didn't exist here until recently, and other wools are either itchy or mixed with synthetics. I appreciate that the British traditions involving wool is a whole lote richer than swedish, so that may be a cause for the different opinions.
I don't buy the silk-argument at all. Silk can never have been commonly used as an undergarment. Too expensive, too fragile etc.. Granted the upper classes could have indulged in whatever excess they liked buy that doesn't count in my book.
Linen was a common historical material, and something I aim to try out. I've never worn that as an under garment, and that it gets softer with use is a nice thing. Thanks for pointing that out Toddy!
Cheers everyone for a nice discussion, and I'll check back, but apologize in advance for maybe not commenting again real soon unless I get some spare workstation-time. I hate typing on my phone.

 

[Old Bones]

There is a little article here, mentioning different fabrics http://www.localhistories.org/clothes.html & this one about the Vikings is proably not untypical of much of Western Europe at the time http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/text/clothing.htm. For most of Europe, linen was a staple, and wool. Of course the richer you were, the better the wool, and if you could afford it, cotton and silk.

Remember that people generally had to get by with what they had. If your like me, and really itch with wool, either you just put up with it, or found something (anything) else.

And linen was not just a bit more expensive than cheap wool, it also really likes moisture (although it expells it pretty well too). That was probably not seen as a disadvantage during the Tudor period, for example, where the belief was held that baths might be bad (too much water on the skin), but fresh clothes drew away dirt. And wool might be a standard in England during the same period, because it was a large part of the economy, and a law was passed in the 16th century to make pretty much every male to wear at least one wool hat, in order to support the wool industry http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Wool-Trade/

Basically, people wore what worked, what they could get/afford, and at certain times, what they were allowed to wear.

 

[mousey]

…., "History repeats itself; it has to, no one listens the first time".

M

I'm not going to listen the second time round neither .....





[I remember typing that a good while ago the last time I saw you post that...]

this time I've got me headphones on so missed it again, I'll keep me ears open for the fourth

 

[Toddy]

Good points Old Bones

Linen's not the only fabric fibre native to Europe though. Both hemp and nettle were (are) used.
I have spenta little time with a Romanian lady who grew, processed, spun and wove her own hemp and she graded her results in three. Coarse for heavy use, everyday for ordinary clothing, sheets, etc., and fine for clothing worn against the skin, for fancy linens, etc. It was superb She was very complimentary about my wool spinning, etc., but I was incredibly impressed with her hemp
It's only the drug aspect that stops hemp being a much more widely used material. Good hemp cloth is every bit as good as linen, and nettle cloth is fine and soft and absolutely beautiful when properly made
Hemp also suits much of the land better than linen, and it's certainly a gentler crop to grow than cotton.

Cotton only really won because it's short staple meant that it could easily be mechanically prepped, spun and woven. The other fibres need to be spun damp, they are long staple and need different machinery.
Nowadays a lot of the long fibres are cut so that they can be worked on cotton machinery. It creates a much poorer linen or hemp cloth that way though. Good linen and hemp with unchopped fibres lasts for hundreds of years.

M

 

[Harvestman]

Good points Old Bones

Linen's not the only fabric fibre native to Europe though. Both hemp and nettle were (are) used.
I have spenta little time with a Romanian lady who grew, processed, spun and wove her own hemp and she graded her results in three. Coarse for heavy use, everyday for ordinary clothing, sheets, etc., and fine for clothing worn against the skin, for fancy linens, etc. It was superb She was very complimentary about my wool spinning, etc., but I was incredibly impressed with her hemp
It's only the drug aspect that stops hemp being a much more widely used material. Good hemp cloth is every bit as good as linen, and nettle cloth is fine and soft and absolutely beautiful when properly made
Hemp also suits much of the land better than linen, and it's certainly a gentler crop to grow than cotton.

Cotton only really won because it's short staple meant that it could easily be mechanically prepped, spun and woven. The other fibres need to be spun damp, they are long staple and need different machinery.
Nowadays a lot of the long fibres are cut so that they can be worked on cotton machinery. It creates a much poorer linen or hemp cloth that way though. Good linen and hemp with unchopped fibres lasts for hundreds of years.

M

I vaguely recall hearing that the Napoleonic wars were fought over control of the hemp crop, such was its value. I might have that all wrong, but certainly hemp was an extremely valuable fibre crop for clothing.

 

[OurAmericanCousin]

I use linen or even linsey- woolsey ( when I can get it) against my body as much as I can, with a couplethree cotton shirts topped off with a canvas lined wool blanket weskit as basic outfit. The various layers, each doing their jobs, insulate very well. If it rains, I have my braintanned deer jacket ( also good as a cold weather windbreak) topped off with a wool blanket. For heavy rain I use an oilskin poncho.

I try to control my exertion in cold weather to avoid the inside out wetting. Layers go off and go on. I'm seldom in a hurry, don't want to expend more calories than I can replace, and overall try to stay calmish.

Cotton has an important role in my wardrobe, but isn't always interchangeable with other materials.

 

[Tengu]

Whats Mistaseni, Robson Valley?

 

[Harvestman]

I use linen or even linsey- woolsey ( when I can get it) against my body as much as I can, with a couplethree cotton shirts topped off with a canvas lined wool blanket weskit as basic outfit. The various layers, each doing their jobs, insulate very well. If it rains, I have my braintanned deer jacket ( also good as a cold weather windbreak) topped off with a wool blanket. For heavy rain I use an oilskin poncho.

I try to control my exertion in cold weather to avoid the inside out wetting. Layers go off and go on. I'm seldom in a hurry, don't want to expend more calories than I can replace, and overall try to stay calmish.

Cotton has an important role in my wardrobe, but isn't always interchangeable with other materials.

The part about adjusting your activity is a really good point. Modern fabrics leave us with the impression that we can ignore the weather, but this isn't true, and if you change your behaviour it can have a positive effect on the performance of your clothing.

 

[OldJimbo]

It's only the drug aspect that stops hemp being a much more widely used material. Good hemp cloth is every bit as good as linen, and nettle cloth is fine and soft and absolutely beautiful when properly made

Hemp fiber for fine articles is getting to be a bit of a niche product here. I got some samples of fine cloth and non-drug hempseed oil to try when a commercial operation set up. I simply didn't believe the fabric after only seeing hemp fiber in rope and sacking, before.
Here stinging nettles are found in every traditional site. They are one of the very few things which are bigger than childhood memories suggested. I could look through my Nancy Turner books, but the main use for the fiber was its incredible strength for halibut fishing where it was used in preference to all other fibers.

Modern fabrics leave us with the impression that we can ignore the weather, but this isn't true, and if you change your behaviour it can have a positive effect on the performance of your clothing.

I absolutely see your point but it also works another way. People get clothing/duvets/blankets which suit what they are used to - which might be an environment of limited extremes due to air conditioning, controlled temps. We just found out that a prolonged snowstorm combined with a power outage changes that. Luckily we have houses which while they are made from wood frame are better suited for earthquakes and better insulated. So the coldest it got indoors here was 11C. I dug out a couple of Hudson Bay blankets and was too warm with them. None of the frozen water glass by the bedside stuff I saw in the UK as a kid. In the daytime to be comfortable, I wore - well about what I wore as a kid in school. I'm guessing that with everything shut down, some people were less comfortable than me.

 

[NoName]

for me in summer, mostly cotton.
But in fall and winter, no cotton at all....it does not dry and indeed feels very cold when wet. It even begins to stink of mold after one day of not drying correctly.
I really like wool in Hollands damp, windy and sometimes cold fal/ winter. The all cotton clothing has only been around here since the central heating era. Even the military used it only a couple of decades. Wool been around for thousends and thousends of years.
There are so many nice ways to make woolen clothing:
Very dense and windproof as in Loden / Tweed, light and does not collect a lot of moisture
very fluffy and loose (thick loose thread) for really warm sweaters
merinowool, thin and airy for underwear

I have a really old school Monty coat, waterproof the label says. I tested it whole days, it kept me warm and comfortable on the contrary to Gore tex jackets older then 3 years (binned them all).
wool: - anti bacterial, - hollow fibre- natural grease on fibre- warm when "wet"- dries quick when wet, airy in summer (thin merino), excellent breathing properties, bio degradable, (not made from oil, so we are not sponsoring Dubai, Saoudi Arabia, Quatar or IS), does not pile like fleeze, does not degenerate like synthetics (synthetics start to degenerate from day one)