"Cotton Kills"

[Laurentius]

Last year I bought a Bergans Morgedal smock, it has since then had a lot of outings in the rain and wind. Whilst it is certainly not waterproof, it will wet through in a heavy downpour, it seems to have the remarkable property of drying very quickly once the rain stops. I thought cotton was not supposed to do that. On the other hand I wear polyester technical T shirts, and they can get as wet through from the inside as any cotton T shirt can. If you want to stay dry you sometimes have to take a layer off before you put a layer on so you don't wet out from the inside. Yesterday I was out walking in only a T shirt and the Morgedal smock, I was plenty warm enough, I didn't put anything else on as a mid layer till I got back to the car.

 

[santaman2000]

Wet and cold is our world…..half a metre is drought weather here
We're fair skinned for a reason, it's an adjustment to survive with low vitamin D from low sunshine levels.

M

We've been known to get that much rain in a matter of 24 hours.

 

[Toddy]

Does it then dry up quickly though ? or drain away ? or does it stay cold and sodden and muddy ?
Florida does rather have the reputation of being warm

M

 

[santaman2000]

Does it then dry up quickly though ? or drain away ? or does it stay cold and sodden and muddy ?
Florida does rather have the reputation of being warm

M

Reputation for being warm? 17f (-8.3c) when I got up this morning.

On the heavy rains, they take a while to drain/dry. They usually raise the water ove the streets and into low lying homes and businesses by a few feet.

But you're right, we rarely get both at the same time. At least not in the extremes.

 

[Toddy]

We're warmer than you just now. We've just had gales and torrential rain and the temperature in my back garden is 12.3C at present.
It's too warm for us at this time of year; I'm waiting for the other weather shoe to drop, tbh.

M

 

[OldJimbo]

For sure I wouldn't trust to going out in (100% cotton) jeans and denim shirt in any season here. With poly/cotton or other mixes, things get more complicated. I've worn 65% poly-35% cotton "workwear" pants and shirts for years, when going out in all sorts of weather. The material dries fast, is very resistant to sparks when close to big fires and wears like iron. From cold wet conditions here to very cold conditions in Alberta (admittedly with enough wooly underwear to require much larger sizes), it's worked well as a sort of "outer shell". My point is that while the cotton is probably treated, I sure don't feel 35% "at risk" due to wearing some 35% cotton clothing.

 

[Dave]

My bison bushcraft trousers, moleskin, are great in the winter.

I often see photos of people wearing the poly cotton fjallraven trousers in the arctic. Never owned a pair.

How about THESE fjallraven woollen forest trousers made from shetland wool for just £435? :togo:

I mean why would you, when you can buy a pair of surplus swedish m39 trousers for £12?

The swedish m39 jackets are just like more expensive cruiser jackets as well. Great jackets, you just look a bit of a tit when you wear them with the matching pants.

Surplus swedish long johns are cotton. Whats that about then?

 

[Toddy]

What's the difference between the climate in the UK and in Sweden when long johns are a good idea ?

M

 

[OldJimbo]

Back in the 60's when I was out on mountains in Wales and Ireland, the standard was heavy knee length wool socks (plus gaiters), moleskin climbing breeches, ex-army wool shirts, wool pullover and an anorak. The cotton anorak and super thick breeches worked well, especially in blocking wind. I'd have a thin knee length cagoule for really bad rain. I'm still here so it worked back then despite cotton pants and anorak.
Is that gear now part of the fossil history?

 

[John Fenna]

Back in the 60's when I was out on mountains in Wales and Ireland, the standard was heavy knee length wool socks (plus gaiters), moleskin climbing breeches, ex-army wool shirts, wool pullover and an anorak. The cotton anorak and super thick breeches worked well, especially in blocking wind. I'd have a thin knee length cagoule for really bad rain. I'm still here so it worked back then despite cotton pants and anorak.
Is that gear now part of the fossil history?

Moleskin britches - nah!
Derby Tweed was much better

 

[British Red]

What's the difference between the climate in the UK and in Sweden when long johns are a good idea ?

M

None, I am wearing bamboo ones right now

 

[pysen78]

I've always thought the saying "cotton kills" only applied to the insulating layer. Obviously, before synthetics cotton was the only thing to use as a base layer. All the Swedish older surplus base-layer garments is cotton, and lots of shell-type garments are cotton. If you wear wool between your base and your shell, this mitigates most problems with moisture.
It has to be said, though, I've only come across the saying in some books and possibly whatever British "special forces themed survival whatnot" TV-shows, I've happened to watch.
Possibly the saying has been bastardised in common use?

Something I've heard a few Swedes use (more recently) as a similar phrase is "Bomull suger" -translates as "Cotton sucks" implying both the obvious, and that it retains moisture...

 

[mrcharly]

Obviously, before synthetics cotton was the only thing to use as a base layer.

No

Wool or silk are better choices and were widely used. I believe some early mountaineering kit used wool then silk over the top. In some circumstances wool still outperforms synthetic.

 

[Toddy]

If the climate is cold enough to be dry, cold enough that rain falls as snow, then cotton is fine, provided you don't sweat through and hang around in it like wearing a wet towel.
As an outer layer in a climate like that it's fine because it can be woven tightly enough to stop the wind, but to still let sweat evaporate.

It's still (ventile apart) the cheap option. Wool's much better, and well woven gaberdine (which costs much more than even ventile does) is superb.
Good properly woven and fulled tweeds are excellent too. Estate tweeds I mean, high quality, not the ladies skirt or cheap jackets stuff.

Inuit use cotton for their parkas these days, well, the town based ladies do. Their climate allows them to wear brain tanned skins though without them failing or going mouldy or mildewed (try that in the UK and the skins need care. I reckon they learned about smoke tanning as a by product of hanging their clothing up inside their homes to dry off )

Ah, it's horses for courses.
At the end of the day, so long as you're not wearing sodden wet clothing in the cold and wet, then it's fine. Just mind the analogy about cotton and towels.

atb,
M

p.s. British Red, those bamboo thermals are excellent but I haven't tried them when sodden wet and in a howling gale.

 

[British Red]

I put them on a maiden toddy yesterday with my wool shirts. The shirts, though thicker, dry faster, which says something.

 

[Teepee]

Pure cotton takes ages to dry when it's above freezing but the cold brings cotton to life. It's fascinating to watch ice filled cotton sublimate it's moisture off in minutes below -10c.

If you can avoid sweating into cotton, and that really applies in the deep cold as you should never sweat, there is no liquid water about so moistening of the base layers shouldn't happen. I see little reason for cotton thermals in deep cold (where moistening won't be a problem) not to keep dry and so reasonably effectively insulating. Moisture content of the air in deep cold is so low that a small temperature differential drives off moisture very quickly in the warmed and super dry air.

Boy though, If those poor Swedes ever did get damp base layers, it would be miserable. No wonder I get the feeling that Swedes in general who have served, have a lack of fondness for their old kit.

 

[pysen78]

@mrcharly: I agree with silk being superior to cotton, but was that really commonly used or only high-end? Doesn't count in my view if it was as rare then as, I don't know, "Graphene Gaiters" (Not an actual product) today.
I've never had the pleasure of wearing pure wool undergarments but, then again, I'd try not to!

@Toddy: Aye, horses for courses. I've yet to try gabardine, but may well in the future. What I meant was that even if you're getting soaked in "British" weather, a thick woolen sweater will still keep you alive even if trapped under, say, a polycotton bdu.

@Teepee: Yes a lot of our army kit is not as good as civilian alternatives, but then again I don't think the cost compares either. It's the same balancing that makes armies all over the world procure the crap they do.
That said, I've had many nice outings, using old army gear, and I think the bad experience people have with it is because the average squaddie lacks skills to stay comfortable, and oftentimes no time is given to rectify that in the field, coupled with lack of sleep, water, food...
I don't think ANY gear will work that good when put through the: "sweat-a-lot-then-lay-in-the-mud-for-hours" routine, or the favourite "march-all-day-without-changing-socks-then-stand-still-in-sleet-and-snow-at-roadblock-all-night"

 

[mrcharly]

@mrcharly: I agree with silk being superior to cotton, but was that really commonly used or only high-end? Doesn't count in my view if it was as rare then as, I don't know, "Graphene Gaiters" (Not an actual product) today.
I've never had the pleasure of wearing pure wool undergarments but, then again, I'd try not to!

Why not? Suitable wool is soft, naturally resistant to stinky bacterial growth and durable. Modern washable nappies use it and there isn't much softer than a baby's skin.

Silk was commonly used for mountaineering gear. Silk liners etc are available in most outdoor shops. Not exactly 'exotic'.

 

[santaman2000]

Why not? Suitable wool is soft, naturally resistant to stinky bacterial growth and durable......

And itchy as h*** next to your skin. At least for most people although I've developed a tolerance for it on my arms in the last few years.

 

[Harvestman]

And itchy as h*** next to your skin. At least for most people although I've developed a tolerance for it on my arms in the last few years.

I disagree on the itchiness point. It depends on the wool, of which there is considerably variety in quality and grades, not to mention different sheep breeds.

Unless of course you are one of the unfortunate people whose skin reacts badly to wool regardless, in which case, fair enough.