Thoughts on Zoo's

[punkrockcaveman]

I visited a popular zoo today, not the first time I've been to a zoo mind, but everytime I go as fascinating as it is to see such a variety of incredible animals, I can't help but feel sad for them. Some actually look a bit sad or atleast stressed to a degree.

I think they are a great educational tool, but I think in a way they promote keeping captive animals, and give people a strange idea of what wildlife actually is. I could be wrong but it seems a lot of people that go to zoo's haven't seen a lot of real wild life before, just from over hearing folk talking.

Interested to know the thoughts of people coming from a bushcraft perspective!

 

[JonathanD]

It’s a difficult subject. But species have been saved from extinction because of zoos. They’re not ideal for many of the larger mammalian species. But overall they do a good job and they are improving.

After discovering a new species of viper in Tanzania some 12 years back, we took the decision that preserving some of them in a zoo/reserve would be the best way to preserve the species. As they were very striking (no pun intended) in colour, it was recognised early on that this tiny community would be sought after for pet market exploitation. Although the site is well guarded, this is becoming increasingly problematic as the organised criminals behind this market are incredibly well funded and sophisticated.

Some people may say that discovering them was the problem. But the ever encroaching development of the land would have seen them discovered soon anyway. At least we got there first.

 

[Duggie Bravo]

When I think about how far zoos have come from my childhood visits to Bristol Zoo, which was your traditional rooms with bars on the front, to a recent visit to the Yorkshire Wildlife Park where you can walk through the enclosures with the animals it is completely different experience, the Polar Bear zones is very impressive and I think that they try to ensure the animals welfare and environments are the best they can do.
They serve a useful purpose ensuring that animals survive and people get to see them and perhaps inspire some to take the journey to protecting them.
If you haven’t seen it then John Bishops programme about the Beluga Whales being moved to a Whale Sanctuary in Scandinavia, certainly inspired me to want find out more and see what I can do to help.


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[windz1000r]

mordern zoos have come a long way from the zoos of the past thats for sure.
even keepers of exotics have come a long way.

and the goal now for most is to try and replicate there natural habbitat as closely as possible.

this is comeing from someone who has kept alot of animals most havent ever seen in the wild or even in zoos in some occations.

i used to have my own exotics company
but left as the hobby wasnt improveing at a fast enough rate
i did work with alot of importers and breaders to try and stop mass imports as best i could as a one man team.
fortunatly alot of goverments have stepped in and banned alot of importing of animals now and this has driven the prices up very highly to the point where only people who really care will actually ever own such exotics

 

[Broch]

I know what you mean and I sympathise with your dilemma. The very best zoos for the animals are the ones where it's actually hard to see the animals because the enclosures are so big or so wild that they are hidden. I genuinely feel guilt when I see the apes at Chester Zoo - it's mainly a concrete bare jungle with a lot of very bored looking animals. However, without zoos I think a lot of the public would have very little connection with animals from the rest of the world and their plight would not be in the public's eye.

Zoos have improved but I still think there's a very long way to go. The real question is, are the public prepared to pay for what really needs to be done? It's already expensive to visit a good zoo but, if they are to provide bigger, better, enclosures, the price can only go up.

 

[henchy3rd]

I don’t see the need for certain animals in zoos when they are plentiful in the wilds.
I do however see breeding endangered or threatened animals as a way of further ensuring their species.
I reluctantly went to one in Crete & was shocked by the conditions they were kept in.( I know crocodile/alligator pens stink, but this was overwhelming)
One so called zoo keeper was telling us about an crocodile in captivity. I questioned him as I knew it was a black caiman.. he didn’t know where to put his face & abruptly ushered us out to another exhibit?

 

[demographic]

YesNoMaybe.
As a place to help keep specis extant (as opposed to extinct) and have breeding programmes to release some into the wild? Yes.
Orcas in a massive tank or Polar Bear taking four paces in one direction then four in the opposite direction in an obviously stressed way? NO.

Both of those extremes ennd up being kind of Maybe I guess so for me it needs to have people keep en eye on em to keep em right.

 

[Tengu]

Visited a small zoo once, the animals were well looked after but they seemed to exist for the guide to project human problems onto. ("This small monkey was born the wrong side of the tracks and so he wont come to anything")

There were more prohibitory notices than animal, and only vague lip service in mention of CONSERVATION.

But no doubt done properly they can do a good job. my friends Great Bustard project wouldnt be possible without West Midlands Safari park rearing chicks, and what was it I read about the captive breeding of the Pygmy hog in India? (A small but interesting creature no one cares much about)

 

[Mr Wolf]

Don’t like seeing seeing the sadness in big cats eyes

 

[Duggie Bravo]

YesNoMaybe.
As a place to help keep specis extant (as opposed to extinct) and have breeding programmes to release some into the wild? Yes.
Orcas in a massive tank or Polar Bear taking four paces in one direction then four in the opposite direction in an obviously stressed way? NO.

Both of those extremes ennd up being kind of Maybe I guess so for me it needs to have people keep en eye on em to keep em right.

Bristol Zoo had a Polar Bear that paced like that, they had a keeper permanently stood by the enclosure to explain it was an animal reduced from a Circus who had spent it’s life in a trailer cage and had therefore marked out a “cage” in it’s enclosure and stayed inside that during the day. As I mentioned earlier the Polar Bear zone at Yorkshire Wildlife Park looks good, they have 3 bears, but I only saw one, there are 4 environments for the bears to replicate (on a much smaller scale) the types of environment they will see in the wild - obviously no snow in the middle of the summer.


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[punkrockcaveman]

Thanks for all the replies folks. Sounds like we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, I shouldn't be surprised really! I feel happier knowing that they are doing more work for endangered species. It's a shame that more isn't done to combat the root of the problem, I just hope we're not too late to change

 

[Paul_B]

Near me there's few zoos/safari parks. There's one near Dalton in Cumbria, there's a very small one near Milnthorpe (like the place in that smaller Leeds park in case you know it) and Blackpool zoo. I've been to the first two a few times.

The Dalton one has had a lot of problems with officials and IIRC the original owner was forced out due to animal welfare reasons. In fact there were a few escaped animals,a keeper killed and other things. While we were there we saw a guy making an official report on an attack by a vulture in that enclosure. We usually avoid that but our son was about 4 or 5 so we thought it ok. We went though and I'll never go through it again. Not safe at all. Then again another open enclosure where you walk among various birds and animals ended up with us being chased into a building by an animal with intent to harm. We were not alone as others ducked in after us.

I don't know if the improvement forced on them by the authorities has solved the many issues. BTW despite all the entertainment caused issues doesn't stop that little, regional zoo being involved with a few conservation projects. The aid in that is twofold I believe. They take part in a worldwide breeding programme for endangered animals and they send people out to work with projects where these animals come from.

Both Dalton and the one near Milnthorpe were involved in a snow leopard breeding programme. AIUI the Dalton one had to give up on their cats but the Milnthorpe one still has a male and female snow leopard. I do not think they have the space to take part in such a scheme with a large cat like the snow leopard. It feels wrong.

Where the smaller zoos can do good is with the smaller, endangered animals I think.

 

[Paul_B]

One more point, all zoos need to have the entertainment side to bring the punters and money in so that the conservation projects can be carried out. They're flipside of the same zoo coin. Part of that entertainment is the v larger or cuddlier animals. Just like the giant panda is a big conservation icon. It's used to raise money but behind it the money is used to save habitat and other species from the panda's territory. Lions, Tigers, polar bears, penguins, elephants giraffes, etc. They all attract punters and money. Entertainment if you like, but behind that there's a rare cockroach or ugly rat being saved.

I think we like to see the entertainers of the animal world but we don't like to see them not in as naturalistic setting as possible. We don't like the pure entertainment but we do like the conservation. Perhaps conservation is a cynical ploy to stop zoo closures. Perhaps it's a price to pay to save species.

BTW the Dalton zoo has spectacled bears IIRC a Colombian native. There's a project to involve the locals in conservation of that species that Dalton zoo is part of. I think it's important to get locals on side with conservation. That seems a good project.

 

[JonathanD]

I was one of those officials.

I audited zoos every year (snakes obviously) you‘d be surprised what they lose and the ineptitude. But the inept minority should not reflect upon them all.

 

[Paul_B]

I think I heard one local zoo lost 300 animals over not very many years. Can't remember the details but things got bad enough to nearly shut it down. We were halfway through the annual ticket scheme we bought into at that point and thought it was going to be shut down. We went there several times a year at that time as our son was quite young and it's a joy to see how much he got from each visit.

Since that time it has expanded and built a lot of new areas having taken over nearby farmland I think. They also created more free wandering animal areas you can walk through among them. Mostly deer and birds but some got a little aggressive.

There's probably a lot of small zoos that are little more than a collection of vivariums with reptiles, snakes, amphibians and insects in. Plus a few greenhouses with different conditions conditions containing birds, butterflies and a few rodents or small deer. Leeds has one in a city park, near me there's one with outside area containing enclosures with mammals in. Snow leopards in a complex cage system designed to allow male and female to become aware of each other but kept apart so there's no issues between them. They were a part of the captive breeding program for the species despite being a very small zoo.

It does make me wonder what their qualifications are to keep those animals.

 

[Nice65]

Haven’t got much time for zoos and animals as entertainment. My dad was a vet, gave up his contract at the local racecourse in late 70’s due to having to shoot so many horses because the owners weren’t bothered with them if they couldn’t race. Had to shoot a bear that escaped Hotham Park Zoo in Bognor, and put down a tiger cub mauled by its mother from Gerry Cottells circus. From a conservation point of view, then great, but we live in a time now where we don’t have to go to a library or be taught about animals.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I live just a few miles from Whipsnade, but have only been there a couple of times, and one of those I was about 12! Very different from the Bronx zoo I visited as a small child. When I first went to the Bronx Zoo the big cats were kept in Victorian style concrete cages and it was very sad. At the same time however, there was a monorail track that went through paddock size enclosures where it really was a lottery whether you saw the animal in question. They also opened the very impressive Jungle World exhibit in 1985 and it still looks impressive today.

I know my childhood experience was different from now, it being pre-personal computers and our family TV was but 14", but much as I loved watching Attenborough's Living Planet and Life on Earth, a trip to Bronx Zoo was really special.

While I don't like the idea of animals developing mental problems, if that can be avoided I think getting people to see real animals still has value. So much else in the world now is "virtual" and has a degree of unreality when seen bordered by the edges of a screen.

 

[Fadcode]

Just watched Ray Mears over in China, he went to a Zoo where they are raising Pandas, very cute they are too, all 7 of them, he spoke to a Lady Doctor who said, the ones that are seen by the Public in the Zoo would never be released into the wild, as they have had contact with Humans, and they would be kept for breeding, the Pandas that are released have never seen a human face or had any contact with humans and are reared by their mothers, apparently they released 9 last year, 7 have survived up to now, and they are tagged and tracked.
What a sensible conservation approach that is.

 

[PoppyD]

Last week Uncle Ray explained that a species of deer that was extinct in China was saved because of a herd we had here. Now they are doing very well and they have hundreds.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Pere David's Deer.
Funny you mention that Poppy, I didn't see the tv program, but did think of that case when I read this thread.
Of course, without zoos and animal parks, the UK wouldn't play host to muntjac deer, or Chinese water deer, or fallow deer.