Things Illegal
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I note with some amusement, the number of negative rep points and snide idiotic comments I have been getting, for pointing out that fishing using any method apart from a Rod and Line is ILLEGAL on Inland waterways in the UK.
Keep them coming by all means.
I also note the contradiction and hypocricy in your statement Tony.
On one hand you are saying that BCUK needs to be accessible to Schools/Colleges, yet you have made it clear that you have no intention of addressing the issue of the Legality of some of the practices being discussed.
You are in effect, endorsing poaching and theft...... on a website that is accessible to schoolchildren.
I will repeat, fish are NOT "Fair Game" they have been reared and put into the Rivers and Lakes by either the Enviroment Agency or a River keeper/Angling Club.
Therefore, any fish taken without permission is THEFT and furthermore, any fish taken on any method apart from Rod and Line is POACHING and is ILLEGAL in the UK.
I will also repeat the point that it is apparently acceptable to discuss fish poaching using Illegal equipment on BCUK, yet any discussion of the use of Gin Traps will be stopped immediately.
Why the dual standards.....both methods are equally Illegal?
Keep them coming by all means.
I also note the contradiction and hypocricy in your statement Tony.
On one hand you are saying that BCUK needs to be accessible to Schools/Colleges, yet you have made it clear that you have no intention of addressing the issue of the Legality of some of the practices being discussed.
You are in effect, endorsing poaching and theft...... on a website that is accessible to schoolchildren.
I will repeat, fish are NOT "Fair Game" they have been reared and put into the Rivers and Lakes by either the Enviroment Agency or a River keeper/Angling Club.
Therefore, any fish taken without permission is THEFT and furthermore, any fish taken on any method apart from Rod and Line is POACHING and is ILLEGAL in the UK.
I will also repeat the point that it is apparently acceptable to discuss fish poaching using Illegal equipment on BCUK, yet any discussion of the use of Gin Traps will be stopped immediately.
Why the dual standards.....both methods are equally Illegal?
Of course all of the good manners called for above are great and worthy.
Unfortunately some people just can't resist an argument and actively search for something to get offended about.
Life's too short if you ask me.....
Unfortunately some people just can't resist an argument and actively search for something to get offended about.
Life's too short if you ask me.....
bogflogger said:
That is like saying: George W. Bush endorses terrorism, because he speaks so much about it.
Well, on the other hand, maybe he is.....
But does people keep him responsible when someone has planned a terrorist attack? No, but I say: Let's hang him for endorsement!
Wayland said:Life's too short if you ask me.....
At the risk of being hung for incitement, I'll endorse that
At the end of the day (or indeed first thing in the morning) children discuss many illegal activities within school (any history lesson will contain a plethora of banned or illegal activities) this does not lead to a blood soaked re-enactment when the bell goes for home time.
My point is, discussion is what keeps these issues in perspective, and takes them for what they are, academic instruction, which if you ever really find yourself in dire straights deep in some unforbidden belly of the world, you could be grateful for.
We are all very aware of the fact we cannot poach on UK waters etc....No need to labour the point...it will not become any more illegal.
bogflogger said:
Including presumably a licensed eel trap fitter with an otter guard (since any method other than rod and line is illegal)? Or is that actually not true?
Red
Amazing....the first time I omit the "there are Local Exceptions" someone is on the case with it.
I really cannot be bothered with this any longer.
I think I will leave it to DEFRA , the Enviroment Agency and the Police Wildlife Protection Teams to deal with.
I really cannot be bothered with this any longer.
I think I will leave it to DEFRA , the Enviroment Agency and the Police Wildlife Protection Teams to deal with.
Bogflogger
My last comment may have been considered snide or idiotic
It may have also had some basis in fact depending upon your openness to considered argument or whether you are approaching this subject from an entrenched position.
Is the thread promoting illegal practice or discussing traditional methods once used to provide food as opposed to sport.
It would be another nail in the coffin of our native (UK) crafts and traditions if even to discuss these practices were outlawed.
I believe there is an argument for reintroducing many of these methods if used to provide food for personal consumption, as they are clearly not sporting.
My last comment may have been considered snide or idiotic
It may have also had some basis in fact depending upon your openness to considered argument or whether you are approaching this subject from an entrenched position.
Is the thread promoting illegal practice or discussing traditional methods once used to provide food as opposed to sport.
It would be another nail in the coffin of our native (UK) crafts and traditions if even to discuss these practices were outlawed.
I believe there is an argument for reintroducing many of these methods if used to provide food for personal consumption, as they are clearly not sporting.
On the point Stovie made.
Conker fights are illegal within school premesis but this does not stop my children discussing them or the massive amounts of conkers that they bring home from under the chestnut tree!
Conker fights are illegal within school premesis but this does not stop my children discussing them or the massive amounts of conkers that they bring home from under the chestnut tree!
swyn said:
Good god man! You will have child services around to throw your (un fit as a fathers bum) into the dungeon.
bogflogger said:
I see you put a nuance on your previous statement
He's not. Everywhere on BCUK you see Tony, the mods, and members saying you need to seek permission, check legality, etc.. That also counts for snaring (fish). If there's permission, there's no theft. If you have permission to poach on private land, then it's not illegal, even if the method might be moraly rejectable for some people. Endorsement is out of the question.
BCUK is an educational website. You can't teach the good whilst not discussing the bad. Besides that, fishing (back to topic) other than with rod, line and hook is part of bushcraft - this is what we all here on BCUK have in common: we are interested in the old ways of our ancestors and other indigenious people around the world.
If we can't discuss other methods (gin trap, see below), than the heart of bushcraft is gone, this website has no use, etc. etc. and we (wel I would) feel very unhappy.
The fact Tony has no intention of addressing the issue of legality of some of the practices being discussed is - well I leave that for him.
But IMHO you can demand from people they are reasonable beings with common sense and know what is (il)legal, or try to find it out, or at least have a gut feeling if something is a bit fishy (pun not intended ... I think
).Not all fish are ... Nor does meat come from Tesco's.
Fish taken with permission isn't theft, and therefor are "Fair Game".
Fair game that is, as mentioned in likewise named sub-forum / section.
On the whole of the BCUK forum it is brought out to seek permission for every action undertaken (As normally actions / techniques will be take place on someone else's land, etc.).
I will also repeat the point that it is apparently acceptable to discuss fish poaching using Illegal equipment on BCUK, yet any discussion of the use of Gin Traps will be stopped immediately.
Why the dual standards.....both methods are equally Illegal?
This is really an ethics & morals discussion, but I'll try:
Put it into perspective:
I reckon you still refer to the snaring fish thread. The technique as used by Torjus, in Norway and where the technique is legal - thus UK law is not applicable, is in short: catching a fish with a snare, pull it up out of the water and dispatch it.
In contradiction with the gin trap:
Picture from: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/gintraps.htm
It's designed to hold an animal (leg) until the hunter arrives (whenever that may be) to dispatch it.
In the latter situation the technique used is crueler and brings the animal more pain and stress as to the first technique.
Yes, you are right by saying that even snaring fish can inflict stress, pain, etc. when a fish is caught but escapes and sinks to the deep without its tail ...
Therefor I think both methods are not equally illegal (gin trap more (as it holds the leg, and the animal doesn't got dispatched almost immediately) than snaring fish (where the fish is dispatched almost instantly), and thus there's no room for gin trap talk on BCUK.
And most people (that are interested in bushcraft and visite BCUK) find this method moraly rejectable and as inhumane as it can be. That makes there's no place for discussing the gin trap (To which thread do you refer to?).
Besides that, the gin trap is not really bushcrafty - is it? You can't really put one in your pocket
and go out into the woods, nor make one yourself - while a snare is easily improvised and fit ones pocket.Though body traps are legal, as they are designed not to hold an animals leg, but it's body, and kill instantly. A nice example if you compare it with snaring fish (almost instant kill) and gin trap (kill when the hunter arrives .. if he arrives ...).
Yes, you probably do find catching fish with other than hook, line & rod not very bushcrafty - it's your good right to do so. But don't forget all other methods became illegal in the last century or so under infuence of (mostly) animalrights groups (and some even want to ban the hook, line, rod method - again, politics, no place for that on BCUK).
An example is the method of fishing used by Ray Mears in his very first episode of his last new series (november 2004) where he was catching fish with a set line on the banks of the river Thames. That method was used far into the 1900's.
bogflogger said:I note with some amusement, the number of negative rep points and snide idiotic comments I have been getting, for pointing out that fishing using any method apart from a Rod and Line is ILLEGAL on Inland waterways in the UK.
Keep them coming by all means.
I also note the contradiction and hypocricy in your statement Tony.
On one hand you are saying that BCUK needs to be accessible to Schools/Colleges, yet you have made it clear that you have no intention of addressing the issue of the Legality of some of the practices being discussed.
You are in effect, endorsing poaching and theft...... on a website that is accessible to schoolchildren.
I will repeat, fish are NOT "Fair Game" they have been reared and put into the Rivers and Lakes by either the Enviroment Agency or a River keeper/Angling Club.
Therefore, any fish taken without permission is THEFT and furthermore, any fish taken on any method apart from Rod and Line is POACHING and is ILLEGAL in the UK.
I will also repeat the point that it is apparently acceptable to discuss fish poaching using Illegal equipment on BCUK, yet any discussion of the use of Gin Traps will be stopped immediately.
Why the dual standards.....both methods are equally Illegal?
Actually bogflogger I think its more a case of your condescending and sarcastic manner that induces people to be intolerant of you, not a factual stance that something is illegal, I think that most members actually appreciate someone pointing things like that out.
As for me being a hypocrite:
If an activity is illegal in this country anyone can put a notice on it that stats that it is illegal, not everyone is knowledgeable on the legal status of all the varied activates encompassed by outdoor activities, and so such knowledgeable input is appreciated and welcomed. Once a statement that the activity is illegal in the UK, or any other country for that matter, has been made then people have been warned and as responsible people they should not participate in illegal activities and we trust they will not.
It is not wrong to discuss techniques, equipment etc that has been used, or are used by people in other parts of the world, these threads often lead to increased knowledge of what is legal or illegal and thus people benefit. I do not understand where I am not addressing issues of legality, if someone like yourself posts a big long statement explaining that something is illegal then everyone knows that its illegal, however, it might not be under certain circumstances or in other parts of the world. As long as people do not participate in any activity that is illegal there is no issue. Having knowledge or discussing the vast majority of subjects is not illegal.
I am not endorsing poaching and theft, I think that saying that I am is incorrect. I am saying that all people should abide by the law that governs them, when something is discussed, it is not a statement that people are free to go and break the law, it is a discussion. In that discussion there should be, if it is known, the legal position if the subject matter may be illegal somewhere, those that do point this out are welcome, although it is possible to labour the point.
I think that we all appreciate the legal status of fish. Some of it I would not have known had the threads on it not been available to read.
My 8 year old some brought home a lovely big trout yesterday, caught with a fly, hell gut it and cook it, probably over a fire for lunch today, yum yum.
bogflogger said:
This from a man who posts a thread on another forum advocating the murder of Bill Gates.
It's all about interpretation..
I have adressed each statement that is incorrect below:
Ahjno said:I see you put a nuance on your previous statement
***INCORRECT: I have always been talking about Freshwater (IE: Inland) waterways and in all other posts have stated so, along with the fact that there are Local exceptions for some other types of fishing.***
If there's permission, there's no theft. If you have permission to poach on private land, then it's not illegal, even if the method might be moraly rejectable for some people. Endorsement is out of the question.
***INCORRECT: Even Fishery Owners are OBLIGED BY LAW to fish for their own fish using a Rod and Line, unless they are restocking their fishery, or carrying out pond maintainence, when they will use a net and have a Licence to use it.***
BCUK is an educational website.
***PRECISELY why BCUK should not be discussing Illegal methods of fishing in the UK without making the point that they are Illegal.***
You can't teach the good whilst not discussing the bad. Besides that, fishing (back to topic) other than with rod, line and hook is part of bushcraft - this is what we all here on BCUK have in common: we are interested in the old ways of our ancestors and other indigenious people around the world.
***PROVIDED that it is clearly stated that the methods being discussed are Illegal in the UK, this is fine.***
Not all fish are ... Nor does meat come from Tesco's.
Fish taken with permission isn't theft, and therefor are "Fair Game".
***ONLY if they are taken with Permission from the fishery owner, by a fisherman with an EA Fishing Licence AND caught with a Rod and Line.***
Therefor I think both methods are not equally illegal (gin trap more (as it holds the leg, and the animal doesn't got dispatched almost immediately) than snaring fish (where the fish is dispatched almost instantly), and thus there's no room for gin trap talk on BCUK.
And most people (that are interested in bushcraft and visite BCUK) find this method moraly rejectable and as inhumane as it can be. That makes there's no place for discussing the gin trap (To which thread do you refer to?).
***BOTH methods are COMPLETELY Illegal in the UK - There is NO Moral distinction at stake here - THEY ARE ILLEGAL.
YET discussion of Illegal fishing is a continuous theme on BCUK.
WHERE are the equivalent threads advocating Illegal use of the Gin Trap?
Where is the distinction, that allows discussion of one but not the other? ***
Yes, you probably do find catching fish with other than hook, line & rod not very bushcrafty - it's your good right to do so.
***IT is also the LAW in the UK. ***
An example is the method of fishing used by Ray Mears in his very first episode of his last new series (november 2004) where he was catching fish with a set line on the banks of the river Thames. That method was used far into the 1900's.
***Which is taking place in Esturial (Salt water) and is therefore not applicable, as hand lining is Legal in Salt water.***
Wayland said:
On a Forum that is BLOCKED to deny access to Educational Establishments.
This was a humourous thread title on an Adult Forum.
What exactly is it's relavence to BCUK and Illegal Fishing Methods?
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