Things Illegal

[BOD]

Periodically I see threads that end up closed after some members start hyperventilating when they find out that others have different views.

This is especially the case over matters to do with snaring or fishing methods that are illegal in the UK.

Recently some sensible soul pointed out that simplely talking about a method does not amount to breaking the law. Someone else also pointed out that many members are not practising their bushcraft in the UK anyway.

As a result we are losing out on many interesting discussions about traditional bushcraft practices.

Is it possible to get some guidance on discussions about this?

I understand that BCUK does not want to appear to condone illegal fishing or trapping methods but a discussion about different ways of doing things should not cause outsiders to see BCUK as a site that encourages criminality and I doubt that the authorities would think so either.

For instance, I could tell you quite a bit about headhunting - the preparation, the methods of ambush and attack, the decapitation, dressing and display of the head(s) and the rituals. I can show you pictures of the weapons and those that have taken heads and so on.

To suggest that I was advocating,condoning, inciting or conspiring to promote headhunting / murder is ludicrous and any attempt at prosecuting me (even if I was within the jurisdiction) would be laughed out of court.

The same applies to fishing methods, in my view.

Can we have guidelines that distinguish endorsement from discussion remembering that censorship of mere opinion is not a democratic British tradition.

 

[Woods Wanderer]

its quite true thats a good point and chances are that someone else with a contradictin ideas will make a good arguement to but a lot for truth was put in that message id be interested in knowing a bit more bout the head hunters if u want 2 pm me lol cheers

 

[bogflogger]

With respect to Illegal fishing methods being used in the UK.

If you look at the most recent thread about this, you will see that after I pointed out that fishing using any method apart from Rod and Line is Illegal in the UK (although there are a few local exceptions) I was shouted down in a tirade of ill informed, emotive and selectively quoted nonsense:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=16281

The same person who claims that Angling is the "most cruel of all the blood sports" and that Anglers have no respect for their catch.......is to be found praising a fish grapnel used to impale fish through their bodys in another thread within 24 hours of his previous tirade about barbaric Anglers!

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=16311

I will continue to post in any thread where the method being described is an Illegal method of catching fish in the UK.

There are Laws in this Country, being a member of BCUK does not exempt members in the UK from following them!

Furthermore, Six Million Anglers manage to fish Legally in the UK annually.

Unless and until ALL threads that refer to Illegal fishing methods, have a clear statement attached to them, that this method of fishing is Illegal in the UK, I will continue to post up the fact.

I do understand your points about traditional methods, discussion, and that some BCUK members live outside the UK (however the vast majority do not) but on the other hand, how many BCUK members are aware that Rivers and Lakes in the UK are either stocked by the Enviroment Agency or by River keepers/Angling clubs.

The fish are therefore NOT "Fair Game" that you can steal as you please.

As I have said in a previous thread.....how come fish theft is an acceptable topic for conversation here on BCUK but a thread about where to buy or how to make a Gin Trap is not?

There is no difference.....both are Illegal.

 

[dommyracer]

I am with you Bod.

Surely a disclaimer on the site saying something like "views expressed on the forum are those of the individual members and not necessarily those of BushcraftUK.com, any actitivties discussed are not necessarily condoned by BCUK" would cover it.

As long as you're not seen condoning it (ie by writing about it in your articles) then discussion on certain things on the forum can't come back on you.

As long as it doesn't go over the top, obviously.

 

[pothunter]

Hi Bod

You get my support, your argument is absolutely correct and to the point. This is another example of censorship, somebody always knows what’s good for us.

My experience has been that bushcrafters are very responsible and that methods of fishing, hunting and even fire lighting are used not only as appropriate and with consideration to the prevailing laws. However there may be circumstances where knowledge of other methods may prove the only source of providing sustenance or heat.

Additional knowledge such as this expands our understanding of different cultures and attitudes, something that is woefully lacking even within our own borders.

As an aside, I have a friend who hunted monkeys with the bow in Borneo some years ago when staying with local villagers to my knowledge there are no missing monkeys from UK zoo’s as a result of his experiences, knowledge or ability. However he continues to practice as a field archer of great competence.

Pothunter.

 

[sam_acw]

I would prefer if one of the mods posted a big bold warning along the lines of "this activity is illegal in Britain" on a thread rather than shut it.
However, somebody owns the site and as such it would most likely be them who would suffer any legal action for encouraging illegal activities etc. As such it is an administration decision.

 

[Ahjno]

First of all we must take a deep breath, and accept that peoples opinions are as diverse as the people who ventilate them. Don't forget it's allmost everytime a case of perspective ... caused by the situation (country) we're in.
I'm not having a go (so to speak) at you (UK) guys, because you drive on the 'wrong' side of the road Therefor you can't have a go (so to speak again) on someone else because the law in his / her country differ from yours.

Yes, you're absolutely right by defending legal techniques over illegal ones according to UK law - because BCUK is a UK based forum.
Keep it up!

The forum rules & regulations state:

5 Obey The Law:
The United Kingdom has some of the strictest knife, gun and wilderness laws in the world. It is the responsibility of the members to ensure their activity (particularly in the members classifieds section) conforms to all UK laws. This will be enforced rigorously.

If you do not know the legal status of your post then find out before posting. You can ask questions etc but do not post something as fact if it might not be

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=45

IMHO (don't neg. rep. me if I'm wrong ) it's possible to discuss any technique on the forum, even if it's illegal to actually use it.
Discussing these techniques (even if they are illegal) do have their value: it's a part of bushcraft (the technique). Our ancestors had to do with a lot less rules, laws, by laws, etc. Only since recent time our governments put up more and more rules. Though this is a political topic, and therefor not suitable for discussion on this (BCUK) forum.

A BCUK discaimer is a good idea, though already present:

Bushcraft UK does not check the validity of the information posted on this site and it cannot, or the contributors to this forum cannot be held responsible for any inaccuracies or omissions.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=128

But a repeat in clear words (best posted in the Rules & Reg. thread) like described by Dommyracer, won't hurt anyone.

Point really is: how do you know if a technique is (il)legal? Especially if you're based in another country? Most people don't even know what techniques are legal in their own country, let alone what would be in another country (Again: perspective).
Here comes the second part of rule #5 (Obey the law) into action:

If you do not know the legal status of your post then find out before posting. You can ask questions etc but do not post something as fact if it might not be

IMHO this sentence needs rephrasing, but that's another (law)discussion.
Ask before posting if a technique you want to post about is (il)legal.

Whom to ask?
The moderators (preferably to those who lead the specific sub-forum you want to make your post in).

Another option would be a something like Bogflogger suggests:

Unless and until ALL threads that refer to Illegal fishing methods, have a clear statement attached to them, that this method of fishing is Illegal in the UK, I will continue to post up the fact.

Though with some ammendments / revisions:
1. If you know a certain technique you want to discuss is illegal, clearly state this and refer to the appropiate legal technique [this needs some research and you might need to ask someone else (moderator)]:

Driving on the right in the UK is illegal, you need to drive on the left side of the road.

Snaring fish is illegal in the UK, though catching fish with rod, line and hook is perfectly acceptable.

2. If you don't know, you still be able to post, without asking someone about any legalities:
Put it in a survival, historical, or antropological context.

Although I don't know if this technique is legal or not, I would like to discuss the use of toxins gained from plants to catch fish. It's widely know amongst our members that some native inhabitatants of South America use plants to intoxicate fish and catch them.
Are there any reports known from our ancestors using the same techniques (what plants) in this part of the world?

Although I don't know if this technique is legal or not, I would like to discuss the use of toxins gained from plants to catch fish. What plants can be used to intoxicate fish in a survival situation in our part of the world?


As an aside of this reply, I'll try to answer Bogflogger's question:

As I have said in a previous thread.....how come fish theft is an acceptable topic for conversation here on BCUK but a thread about where to buy or how to make a Gin Trap is not?

There is no difference.....both are Illegal.

Theft ... if you refer to the thread about snaring fish I must say that it's not, since Norwegian law allows Torjus to catch fish freely (using this technique or not).
If you refer to theft as in fishing without licence etc. - Yes, you're right.
If you refer to catching fish by bushcrafters when they're out and about: they ought to have asked permission to the landowner for everything they want to do (be it: making a leaflitter shelter, fire, snaring and fishing) - if they have not, then yes, it's fish theft.
Theft is just depending the context of the situation (permission or not).
On the question on how to make / buy a gin trap, as you said, it's illegal.

 

[bambodoggy]

I have to say I am in 100% agreement with Bod on this and hope that the site management are listening to what he is saying.

Having said that (and having had run-in's with Bogflogger before over lobster pots) I also agree that he has a right to remind us of the law in the UK.

What I don't understand is why either of the above have to be poles apart....? ? ?


Why can't we talk about some of these methods in detail for our overseas members to try and us to become educated about and at the same time all accept and acknowledge that we are not allowed to use them in the UK. It'snot rocket science is it?

How's about we keep on chatting and discussing what we have been (putting up warning notices if we wish too) and Bogflogger and others of the same opinion (because I'm sure he's not the only one) keep reminding us (and newbies who may not know) about the legalities. Neither party needs to upset the other or even comment on the other's post........simple

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[dave k]

HI,

Your points are fair enough - a bit more emotive than others, but understandable.

I will continue to post in any thread where the method being described is an Illegal method of catching fish in the UK.

Isn't this a bit `moral guardian`? I think someone once saying something is illegal in the country where this forum is based, this would be enough?

 

[pothunter]

Bogflogger

I have just had a moment of clarity!

Why do anglers use rod and line?
Because sporting gentlemen of the 1800’s used rod and line and did not like the idea of peasants catching ‘their fish’

Why does the Environment Agency stock rivers with fish when course fishermen put the fish back?
To counter pollution generated by 150-200 years of industrial waste that was produced to pay dividends to investors.

Why are their no salmon in our rivers?
Because of commercial fishing at sea.

Why have the numbers of our native trout and crayfish plummeted?
Pollution, Mink, Signal Crayfish to name a few.

Why then when a bushcrafter or indigenous peasant wants to hand line a couple of trout for the campfire is he immediately treated as a criminal?
Because the same Gentlemen that polluted the waterways and introduced the alien species to our island made the law that insures that they continue to have their sport.

Why are 6 million anglers encouraged to fish the waterways of the UK?
Tax on the products that they buy, and lots of it.
Licence fees.
And most of them put back what they catch so that another angler can catch the same wee beastie again, having bought his rod and licence.

Can’t help thinking that economics has a big part to play in this.

 

[Tony]

I agree with this as well, however it’s not quite that simple.

In an ideal world members would post that they’re discussing something, that they know it’s illegal but only in the UK etc etc That would set up the thread so that it goes in the right direction, then everyone that answers in that thread would contribute to the subject with their thoughts etc and it would be a great thread. It would point out the places that the activity in question is legal or illegal, it would have good ideas in it, discuss the political and environmental ramifications without making sweeping slanderous statements and best of all everyone would enjoy it without an ire and get a great deal from it.

Also, the people that decide which sites go into which categories when compiling the lists of sites that are blocked by educational establishments, businesses etc would have a look and classify us on the context of our content, not on the actual face value of the content.

However, this just doesn’t happen. The key to why is in your first line

closed after some members start hyperventilating when they find out that others have different views.

Generally threads stay open when people are just discussing things and getting along, they tend to get closed when people start throwing Mud and getting uptight and having a go at each other. I welcome discussion on here as long as it’s conducted within the rules.

I agree that there’s a place for discussing things that might be illegal in the UK, although they still need to be relevant to the outdoors, bushcraft and survival etc (I don’t think that headhunting would come under that ) This is an international site that accommodates people from all over the world, it’s not confined to the UK. If someone talks about hunting monkeys then it’s obviously not in the UK so there’s little issue with something like that. It’s the subjects like fishing that get people on opposing sides.

You’re right, I don’t want to be seen condoning illegal fishing or any other illegal activity and to a point you’re right when you say that people will see it in the correct context, but I have to say that this isn’t always the case, I’ve got plenty or emails and letters from members of the public and official organisations that have in some cases threatened me (I own the site) legally for content on here, just because it’s on here, they don’t care about the context of it, they just care that it’s been talked about. This does leave me in a difficult position sometimes and it creates the situation of a fine balance when allowing some threads to continue. What usually sways it is the way that the people posting in the thread conduct themselves, it’s a lot easier to argue the context of a thread if the people are obviously responsible, reasonable and level headed.

Just stating that what people write is down to them and I except no responsibility doesn’t really work, it’s my site and I’m the one that has to answer for the content and that always has to be a consideration, for me anyway. People posting comments such as

This is another example of censorship, somebody always knows what’s good for

are all very well but it takes us into the subject of who’s site this is and why the rules are in place, I’m not even going to go there.

I’ve been very conscious that it’s unfair for people all round the world to come on here and have to conform to UK law in everything they write, although saying that we do let a fair bit run, if it’s going smoothly. The difficulty is that everyone has a different idea of what smoothly is, as well as what being rude, political, slanderous and the like is. I create the measuring stick and that’s just how it is. I listen to people when they have an opinion, as I’m doing in this case and I have to make a judgment call on what to do. It all has a knock on effect. There’s always going to be upset people when something happens that they don’t like, there’s often legal ramifications, access ramifications for people (going back to the filter software) time considerations and maybe the extra moding that’s needed from people that give up their time as it is. There’s lots of considerations from my end, it’s never just a simple, yeah, that’s a good idea.

Ok, that gives you a bit of info on where I’m coming from and why things aren’t always straight forward, I hope I’ve explained things ok, I’m late for a meeting and I’m rushing this a bit.

There’s rules laid out, they need to be followed, I’ve just noticed that Ahjno has listed some of them (many thanks mate )

Bam, I agree. Things aren’t poles apart, often the people are though. They get upset and then it goes down hill. There’s very little that gets closed because of the subject.

To be honest I don’t think that there’s a lot to change. I’m happy to let threads flow as long as they’re keeping to the rules, we have lots of threads that stand because it’s pointed out that something is illegal and shouldn’t be done in this country, the threads go on as the statement is made and people understand the position. This can continue. However, when people start getting uptight and throwing their toys out the pram it’s time to cool the thread down, same for issues on politics etc that always come in when someone wants to slate the laws of the land. In these instances it’s just going to happen, but it could have been avoided, a bit of prudent thought before clicking the submit button.

Why can't we talk about some of these methods in detail for our overseas members to try and us to become educated about and at the same time all accept and acknowledge that we are not allowed to use them in the UK. It'snot rocket science is it?

How's about we keep on chatting and discussing what we have been (putting up warning notices if we wish too) and Bogflogger and others of the same opinion (because I'm sure he's not the only one) keep reminding us (and newbies who may not know) about the legalities. Neither party needs to upset the other or even comment on the other's post........simple

Agreed, just keep things appropriate (no need to go into hotwiring a car just in case) and everyone be nice to each other, don’t shout, don’t rave and all will be well.

 

[BorderReiver]

IMO rising passions and slagging each other off is as good a reason as any to lock a thread.

If we can't discuss an emotive topic without resorting to personal abuse,then we should have the privilege withdrawn.

 

[torjusg]

It sure wasn't the intention to cause that much of a stir. I wasn't at all aware that it would be controversial...

I just met an old bloke in the forest and just wanted to communicate my findings... :theyareon

 

[BorderReiver]

It sure wasn't the intention to cause that much of a stir. I wasn't at all aware that it would be controversial...

I just met an old bloke in the forest and just wanted to communicate my findings... :theyareon

Torjusg,you did nothing wrong.

It was the way the two opposing camps reacted to the post that was the problem.

 

[bogflogger]

Torjusg,you did nothing wrong.

It was the way the two opposing camps reacted to the post that was the problem.

Absolutely.

Torjusg, the issue here is not Norwiegen Fishing Laws, but the exponential reaction to my pointing out that this activity is Illegal in the UK.

This is a fact....no amount of volcanic abuse is going to change it.

Neither is this the first time this has happened.......Hopefully it will be the last.

 

[Ratbag]

...I’ve got plenty or emails and letters from members of the public and official organisations that have in some cases threatened me (I own the site) legally for content on here, just because it’s on here, they don’t care about the context of it, they just care that it’s been talked about. This does leave me in a difficult position sometimes....

Tony

I for one had not really appreciated this, so just a quick note then to say a big thank you for putting up with all that cack so's the rest of us can all enjoy our little virtual campfire.

Cheers fella :You_Rock_

Rat

 

[Simon E]

they don’t care about the context of it, they just care that it’s been talked about.

As this is a family site I will limit my reply to this

1: Tell them to shut their pie hole and prove what you are 'Talking about' is illegal
2: Tell them to go ahead and contact their solicitor, a first year lawyer could get this laughed out of court
3: and this is the cause of the most dismay. What on Earth is going on? The whole place is being 'Holster whipped' and 'Nannied' to death. I swear this is the end of us unless this stops!

 

[torjusg]

Isn't it true that it is becoming American tendencies over in the UK? Lawyer firms pushing forth to make people sue eachother over everything?

To condone something doesn't really make you responsible for other people's actions. Just as little as if someone trips over your rug and breaks an arm or a person misuses a borrowed bow and injures himself or others.

People can't go around disclaiming everything, it is sick! People should be expected to have common sense.

 

[dave k]

As this is a family site I will limit my reply to this

1: Tell them to shut their pie hole and prove what you are 'Talking about' is illegal
2: Tell them to go ahead and contact their solicitor, a first year lawyer could get this laughed out of court
3: and this is the cause of the most dismay. What on Earth is going on? The whole place is being 'Holster whipped' and 'Nannied' to death. I swear this is the end of us unless this stops!

:You_Rock_

 

[dommyracer]

Isn't it true that it is becoming American tendencies over in the UK? Lawyer firms pushing forth to make people sue eachother over everything?

Yeah, pretty much.