Things Illegal

[Rebel]

I'm in total agreement with Tony's stance and I expect to get modded myself if I start stepping over the boundaries of civil argument into slander, mudslinging, accusations and the like. If that happens then I just take it on the chin, maybe a few days later I'll realize that maybe I was a bit out of order; there are plenty of other subjects I can discuss without getting my hackles up. Sometimes I avoid commenting in some threads because I know I'll be tempted to stir things up.

When we discuss controversial subjects, like activities that are illegal in the UK, then things can get very heated and what was an interesting discussion can go down hill rapidly. It would be nice if we could all debate opposing views intelligently, calmly and rationally but let's face it we are emotional people who can be stubborn and proud so it just isn't going to happen all the time. When I read a reply that I consider reactionary or baiting then I have to think long and hard about the effect my emotional response might cause before I click the "submit reply" button.

We need someone to calm us down or to lock the thread from time to time or it would be anarchy and the only winners would be the verbal anarchists. People who want reasoned intelligent discussion would all leave.

I like the discussions on controversial and illegal activities but, as Tony mentioned, we do need to be very careful how we present it. Sometimes people can give the impression that they not only condone these activities within the UK but that they practice them too and they'd like to encourage you to do the same. When this attitude is in the thread it is obviously going to cause the reputation of this forum a lot of damage if it's allowed to continue.

Nobody got too upset about the roadkill thread (taking roadkill is technically illegal in the UK) but we would get upset if somebody condoned and practised the ancient art of seal clubbing. So we do need to have some kind of common sense in our choice of words and topic when we decide to discuss a subject.

 

[spamel]

I’ve got plenty or emails and letters from members of the public and official organisations that have in some cases threatened me (I own the site) legally for content on here, just because it’s on here, they don’t care about the context of it, they just care that it’s been talked about.

This is where practical skills in headhunting could become useful!!!!

People should be expected to have common sense.

Unforunately, common sense isn't that common!!

 

[Hunter_zero]

headhunting - the preparation, the methods of ambush and attack, the decapitation, dressing and display of the head(s) and the rituals. I taken heads . :twak:

.

Did you say " group buy ", count me in man, count me in!

You are of course IMHO 100% correct.

John

 

[Tengu]

What `is` wrong with seal clubbing?

Its a quick and humane way to dispatch the animal.

(please be sure to bash the seal on the NOSE for they have thick skulls and an annoyed seal tends to bite.)

There is a long and varied history of sealing in the UK, I think if we wanted to discuss traditional ways of life then we must include it.

Also the reason why there has `always` been uncomfortable feelings about the activity.

 

[Hunter_zero]

What `is` wrong with seal clubbing?

.

Have you ever seen a drunk seal?

As far as I am concerned, I would ban everyone from clubbing. May their eyes fall out! Waking me up at 3am on a Sunday morning.



John

 

[Tony]

How on earth did the thread get from where it started to here? This is one of those threads that might be best left on subject.

 

[BorderReiver]

How on earth did the thread get from where it started to here? This is one of those threads that might be best left on subject.

It's part of the magic of fora.

 

[Tengu]

Should we ask Tony `just` who threatened him with legal action for posting stuff they didnt like?

I think we should know who the enermy is.

 

[bambodoggy]

Should we ask Tony `just` who threatened him with legal action for posting stuff they didnt like?

I think we should know who the enermy is.

Or we could just stay on topic like Tony's hinting we do

 

[Stuart]

First of all we must take a deep breath, and accept that peoples opinions are as diverse as the people who ventilate them. Don't forget it's allmost everytime a case of perspective ... caused by the situation (country) we're in.
I'm not having a go (so to speak) at you (UK) guys, because you drive on the 'wrong' side of the road Therefor you can't have a go (so to speak again) on someone else because the law in his / her country differ from yours.

Yes, you're absolutely right by defending legal techniques over illegal ones according to UK law - because BCUK is a UK based forum.
Keep it up!

The forum rules & regulations state:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=45

IMHO (don't neg. rep. me if I'm wrong ) it's possible to discuss any technique on the forum, even if it's illegal to actually use it.
Discussing these techniques (even if they are illegal) do have their value: it's a part of bushcraft (the technique). Our ancestors had to do with a lot less rules, laws, by laws, etc. Only since recent time our governments put up more and more rules. Though this is a political topic, and therefor not suitable for discussion on this (BCUK) forum.

A BCUK discaimer is a good idea, though already present:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=128

But a repeat in clear words (best posted in the Rules & Reg. thread) like described by Dommyracer, won't hurt anyone.

Point really is: how do you know if a technique is (il)legal? Especially if you're based in another country? Most people don't even know what techniques are legal in their own country, let alone what would be in another country (Again: perspective).
Here comes the second part of rule #5 (Obey the law) into action:


IMHO this sentence needs rephrasing, but that's another (law)discussion.
Ask before posting if a technique you want to post about is (il)legal.

Whom to ask?
The moderators (preferably to those who lead the specific sub-forum you want to make your post in).

Another option would be a something like Bogflogger suggests:


Though with some ammendments / revisions:
1. If you know a certain technique you want to discuss is illegal, clearly state this and refer to the appropiate legal technique [this needs some research and you might need to ask someone else (moderator)]:

Driving on the right in the UK is illegal, you need to drive on the left side of the road.

Snaring fish is illegal in the UK, though catching fish with rod, line and hook is perfectly acceptable.

2. If you don't know, you still be able to post, without asking someone about any legalities:
Put it in a survival, historical, or antropological context.

Although I don't know if this technique is legal or not, I would like to discuss the use of toxins gained from plants to catch fish. It's widely know amongst our members that some native inhabitatants of South America use plants to intoxicate fish and catch them.
Are there any reports known from our ancestors using the same techniques (what plants) in this part of the world?

Although I don't know if this technique is legal or not, I would like to discuss the use of toxins gained from plants to catch fish. What plants can be used to intoxicate fish in a survival situation in our part of the world?


As an aside of this reply, I'll try to answer Bogflogger's question:


Theft ... if you refer to the thread about snaring fish I must say that it's not, since Norwegian law allows Torjus to catch fish freely (using this technique or not).
If you refer to theft as in fishing without licence etc. - Yes, you're right.
If you refer to catching fish by bushcrafters when they're out and about: they ought to have asked permission to the landowner for everything they want to do (be it: making a leaflitter shelter, fire, snaring and fishing) - if they have not, then yes, it's fish theft.
Theft is just depending the context of the situation (permission or not).
On the question on how to make / buy a gin trap, as you said, it's illegal.

an excellent post Ahjno calm, clear and level headed. Thankyou for taking the time to write it. Have some Rep :You_Rock_

 

[demographic]

Funniest thread in ages, I rated it a 5

 

[Tengu]

Your right there

But its funny how we want to do bushcraft in a country where everything seems to be stacked against us.

 

[BOD]

So if we were to subscribe to some informal "ground rules" in addition to the mods and the site rules it might, as I understand what members have said, look like this

1. it is okay to seek information or to post information on any bushcraft related topic e.g grapple hooks;

2. any members can point out that a method or practice is illegal or not as the case may be

3. It is okay for the others to discuss it but not to condone or practice it in the UK

4. members can say that they find the practice immoral but that cannot impugn the character or values of those who are interested in it

5. we should discuss the practice or methodology but not stray into a debate on the morality of it as there are many bush 'cultures'


I am not seeking to impose anything just to get some clarity. As someone else has said it is the intolerance of difference and the emotionalism that should end a thread.

However, if one 'side' of the discussion is sticking to the 'rules' and the other is increasingly getting hot perhaps some members could be invited to have a 'time out' (enforced if necessary) so that the discussion could continue peacefully.

 

[Tony]

That does cover it quite well. I’ll add a few more comments though.

1. it is okay to seek information or to post information on any bushcraft related topic e.g grapple hooks;

Err, as long as it’s realistic and the reasons/uses are explained, thus establishing the veracity and point of the thread.

2. any members can point out that a method or practice is illegal or not as the case may be

Yes, agrees, but they need to just point it out, not rave about it and not condemn anyone that wants to learn about things. A nice polite post pointing out that something is illegal in the UK, or any other country, is all that’s needed. Do not expect the mods or Admin to spend time researching the legal status of everything discussed and then post notices on it.

3. It is okay for the others to discuss it but not to condone or practice it in the UK

This sort of goes in line with the above. Discussion is encouraged, anyone that rants is out of order. This is not the place for getting into political, religious, ethical type arguments. Saying that members need to be considerate of others and that fact that they can cause offence. I’m also going to include a get out clause for me and the mods. If we deem something inappropriate we’ll close it or remove it, even if some people think that it’s ok because it’s just being discussed. There was talk somewhere a while ago of how a foxes brain comes out when it’s hit with such and such, that’s just going to close the thread down as it’s unnecessary. Keep that in mind.

4. members can say that they find the practice immoral but that cannot impugn the character or values of those who are interested in it

I agree with this. But members can’t use this to say what they like, if it’s offensive or provocative it will be removed. It comes back to being a valid subject. Just because some tribe in the jungle does something that does not automatically make it acceptable as a subject.

5. we should discuss the practice or methodology but not stray into a debate on the morality of it as there are many bush 'cultures'

I think I’ve covered this above over the previous points. Just because we’re going to avoid debating the morality of something does not give license to say what we like. I will remove things that I think should be removed. Remember that this site is not based in some lost part of the world, some things will not be acceptable even if they are practiced somewhere in the world. Everyone should think before creating a subject to discuss.

There will be no problem as long as we stick to how so and so makes fire, and how he build shelters, hunts for food, what plants are used for what etc etc.

However, if one 'side' of the discussion is sticking to the 'rules' and the other is increasingly getting hot perhaps some members could be invited to have a 'time out' (enforced if necessary) so that the discussion could continue peacefully.

If a thread is going off track then it’s down to those participating in the thread, for the most part it’s down to you guys to help moderate each other, know when to back off, when to not get hooked and reeled in by an antagonist. It’s not the responsibility of the Mods to babysit all the threads, they’ll come and tidy up if needed but that may well be a thread closed. It’s massively time consuming figuring out who’s the cause of what, then finding out that so and so PM’d me and had a go, so I posted in the thread bla bla bla. Everyone needed to have respect for each other and has a responsibility to behave well and not cause trouble.

Ok, I’ve just said that it’s down to you guys to keep things on track in threads. I appreciate though that some people don’t’ care about this and are quite happy to just rant and start pointing the finger etc. These people will come unstuck and they will have time out. I will see this as a deliberate trouble making. All the rules of the site apply.

I hope there’s some fantastic discussions that come out of this, just don’t mess it up.

 

[Too Much Kit To Carry]

It seems to me that the whole situation gets down to BALANCE.

If a thread is started or comment posted that somebody finds offensive then they should, as mature and intelligent human beings, be able to restrain their comments or ignore the thread/post they find offensive.

If I have seen something posted on BCUK that either does not interest me or I have issue with I move on to another topic with content I am able to enjoy or contribute to.

To use the example of the “Fish Grapple”, firstly let me state that this is a beautifully fashioned item and as such warrants being exhibited and discussed. As a method of fishing I would not want to see it being used for many reasons. BUT if I were in a survival situation I would resort to any method of preserving the lives of my companions and obviously myself – I would have been ignorant to this method had in not been posted here.

Whilst I have my own beliefs about what is right and wrong and I also respect the Law surely we should be able to discuss “sensitive” topics or items in an intelligent manor. If there are folk that feel the need to comment that the thread/post/item is illegal that’s great – it helps to educate and inform us, but please try to do it with out getting on a soap box and getting hot under the collar.

I’d also like to take the opportunity to thank everybody for all their efforts with this site and forum it’s been a fantastic place look, listen and learn – I hope that as members and contributors we are able to keep it on the right track.

Phil.

 

[bambodoggy]

What's a "fish Grapple", Phil? ? ?

Thanks,

Bam.

(EDIT: Scrap the above....just fond the thread under "fishing" and not "fish" usig the search function! lol )

 

[Too Much Kit To Carry]

What's a "fish Grapple", Phil? ? ?

Thanks,

Bam.

(EDIT: Scrap the above....just fond the thread under "fishing" and not "fish" usig the search function! lol )

Hi Bam,

I was reffering to this item http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=16311&highlight=fish+grapple

Phil.

LOL - I posted this reply and then saw your edit

 

[BOD]

Things seem quite clear to me and I have no problem with what I've read so far.

However, I won't start a thread on headhunting :swordfigh

 

[pothunter]

I was going to add something, but after reading the rules / guide lines I can't remember what it was?

Something to do with seal clubs and opposing thumbs, I think.

 

[Tony]

Things seem quite clear to me and I have no problem with what I've read so far.

However, I won't start a thread on headhunting :swordfigh

:You_Rock_