The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

[jimbo75]

I told you so!
Stupid Zombie killer knives and klingon double ended spikey things being sold on the high street... What do we expect?
We should push harder to stop knives being sold on the high street and keep it under the radar (tried a similar thing with airsoft i the 1990's and got around a a ban back then).
Victims of your own success my bushcrafting friends.

 

[daveO]

just to clarify a couple of points, you can only insure an item with RM if it is sent registered, or parcel,( apart from the standard £30 insurance on a basic letter, etc) to send it registered/parcel you must take it into a post office as it has to be registered on the system.
Heinnies, Amazon and their like, do not go to Post Offices, they bag up the goods and they are picked up by RM, the drivers who pick them up have no interest what is in the bags, they pick them up and take them to the sorting office,they have no idea if there are knives, etc in the bags.
There is likely to be a charge for going to pick your item up, Sub-postmasters, and others, will probably not like doing this service for nothing, The Gov't is very unlikely to hand the franchise for doing this service to RM, as RM is a private company, and this and any other Gov't would not like to be seen favouring one company, and are unlikely to force retailers to use one carrier.

Actually RM already allow you to choose to collect your parcel from a post office or RM/parcelforce depot and give you a discount of £1.50-2.00 for doing so. It means they don't have to deliver to your house so it's cheaper for them. and as a bonus:

To pick up your parcel, all you’ll need is proof of identity (for the person the parcel is addressed to) and proof of delivery address. Your item will be held at the Post Office® branch for 18 days. After that time your item will be returned to the retailer.

So it's actually cheaper for Heinnie Hayes or similar business to abide by the proposed new rules. Not more convenient for the buyer though obviously.

It all seems to be part of the rising popularity of click and collect services and RM trying to keep up with the times while saving themselves a bit of money by making customers do the leg work instead of employing more drivers. From the RM website

With the Click & Collect market set to grow by 8% per annum over the next five years[SUP](1)[/SUP], customers will increasingly expect to be offered Click & Collect as a delivery option. And that’s where Local Collect comes in.
A free service for you and your customers, Local Collect is available at 10,500 Post Office® branches across the UK. Many offer collection outside regular office hours, including evenings and weekends.
A great way for customers to get their hands on their goods fast, Local Collect also lets you maximise convenience and first time delivery success.

The consultation docs talk about fairness of competition etc but a lot of couriers seem to have click and collect options now through various outlets.

If I was a small volume knife maker I'd be contacting RM and making some enquiries before chucking my tools in the skip. They seem to offer small volume collection services but as you say there might be an issue over insurance cover if you need a receipt from the actual shop.

 

[daveO]

I also just checked the Heinnie website and they offer UPS click and collect already on top of their RM options. UPS seem to use local convenience stores as collection points so there's over 20 in my local area alone. They require proof of ID and proof of residence for you to collect your parcel. It also looks like you can leave parcels there for them to collect but I don't know about costs/insurance etc. Looks like a good option for small makers though if they can offer a suitable service.

 

[Wander]

i wish i had the production/editing skills to make an award winning short film about our plight and stick it on youtube... a bushcrafting person or knife maker, maybe both?

I wouldn't if I were you.
At best, you'd just be preaching to the converted (us).
At worst, and probably most likely, you'll just raise ridicule and concern that there are 'survivalist nutters' going into the woods with big knives and axes. Yes, we know that's not the case, but to the 'man on the street' (who is often wary of those that are 'different' to them), bushcrafters are no different from survivalists and loners and the thought that they want to go into the woods (alone) with knives and axes, won't seem that innocent. No matter how 'sensitively' you try to do it. Bushcrafters will just look like crazed loners waiting for the apocalypse.
Don't kid yourself otherwise. It's alright for Ray Mears, on TV, where he's just half-hours entertainment for the masses, with a bit of exotic Australian or African scenery. But the thought that the bloke three doors down, who wears army clothes, likes going into the woods with an axe where he sleeps in shelters he's made, won't seem quite so charming and won't rally them to our flag.

 

[santaman2000]

Actually Little League baseball starts well before "teenage." The youngest class (T-Ball) starts around age 4. By the time kids reach their teenage years, Little League is over and they join their school's teams (but they still have to bring their own bats)

- hardly to do with the gist of what I was saying...

You originally said teenagers don't carry baseball bats to school. My reply says they do. Frequently.

 

[Guzzi Goose]

t the post office just say "Cutlery"

 

[santaman2000]

Another idea, but does anyone think that the postal system could cope with a geographic linked system for collection vs delivery? If the problem is youngsters in towns and cities, then having delivery in those geographic areas being made to collection points that check age could work....

Many retail stores here do something similar (albeit for different reasons) Walmart, for example, will let you order their merchandise online and have it delivered to their retail store nearest you for pick-up. Their reasoning is that they can just throw it in the delivery from the warehouse to the store and save you the delivery fees. I doubt that would be much good if you're ordering from a retailer that doesn't have any brick and mortar stores though. I suppose the best solution (if the problem is age verification) is to simply pay an extra fee to the delivery service (whatever service is used) to check proof of age before delivery.

 

[C_Claycomb]

You originally said teenagers don't carry baseball bats to school. My reply says they do. Frequently.

not here in the UK they don't . we don't play baseball in school. Rounders, and cricket, and those rarely enough. We are, after all, discussing problems and habits of teenagers in the UK.


I do actually have a question for you with regard to US teens. So over here the government has outlawed and banned pepper spray, tasers, batons, and worded the law that anything made, adapted or carried with the intent of using it as a weapon is forbidden. They have also conducted a highly successful campaign portraying knives as weapons. So, now when they interview city teens and ask why they are carrying knives, they often claim it is for protection, because the streets are rough and they need something. With all the non-lethal options taken off the table by the government long ago, and knives painted as weapons, I am not sure that it is all that surprising that they are being carried. My question is, in your part of the US, do the teens feel the need for protection, and if so, what are they carrying, given that they have much more access to everything from pokey key rings up to Glocks?

By the way, I am not suggesting that we should argue for the un-banning of pepper spray! I am just curious how teen culture has developed elsewhere.

 

[Janne]

In US, many schools have metal detectors and security by the entrances to prevent the kids bringing in illegal stuff. I believe more and more are going that way.

I dislike Glocks strongly.

 

[santaman2000]

Pepper spray is still legal (in Florida) unless prohibited by the property owner or in certain areas (courthouses, etc.) I believe TASERS and other electronic defense devises are legal (but that changes every few years so I may not be current)Teenagers can't legally carry handguns anywhere in the U.S. unless accompanied by an adult or on military duty.

When I was still an active cop most teens I stopped were for simple stunts such as speeding, or for overdose related problems. Few of those were carrying anything other than drugs, alcohol, or paraphernalia.

Most CCW holders (Concealed Weapons Licensees) carry handguns. In Florida we allow said licensees to carry other weapons such as knives or pepper spray but many states prohibit anything other than firearms (their licenses usually state Concealed "Firearms" license whereas Florida's states Concealed "Weapons" License. While Florida has reciprocity with 34 other states regarding licensing, it must be remembered that state restrictions are different (the licensing state or the state you're actually in) then you must follow the most restrictive.

Most people who can legally carry prefer handguns, although a significant number prefer non lethal. Generally, knife carry will be considered only for the criminally minded (rightly or wrongly so, that's the general opinion of most people.

Gangs on the other hand have always carried sophisticated firearms and continue to do so.

 

[santaman2000]

not here in the UK they don't . we don't play baseball in school. Rounders, and cricket, and those rarely enough....

Fair enough about my specific example, but I suspect you do have something yo do often enough that also has a potential weapon that nobody would think twice about seeing a kid carrying.

 

[gregs656]

Fair enough about my specific example, but I suspect you do have something yo do often enough that also has a potential weapon that nobody would think twice about seeing a kid carrying.

I take your point but the unfortunate truth is that a great many people here consider knives as weapons - not just potential weapons - outside of the kitchen and for work purposes, and even then a carpet fitter using a Stanley knife would get a very different response to one using a OHO modern folding knife for example.

This attitude is perpetuated partly by lazy media coverage and taken advantage of by politicians who get to appear to be tough on weapons and cracking down on knife crime without ever having to address the fact that most of this crime is carried out with kitchen knives, which as I say, are not automatically seen as weapons by wider society.

Sadly BB is no longer in existence but I know I, and a bunch of others, saw all this coming when AOs become common place. They are just too tempting a target.

Suffice to say I don't agree with this proposal and have done the online form. This is not good news for anyone who owns modern pocket knives.

 

[Guzzi Goose]

not here in the UK they don't . we don't play baseball in school. Rounders, and cricket, and those rarely enough. We are, after all, discussing problems and habits of teenagers in the UK.


I do actually have a question for you with regard to US teens. So over here the government has outlawed and banned pepper spray, tasers, batons, and worded the law that anything made, adapted or carried with the intent of using it as a weapon is forbidden. They have also conducted a highly successful campaign portraying knives as weapons. So, now when they interview city teens and ask why they are carrying knives, they often claim it is for protection, because the streets are rough and they need something. With all the non-lethal options taken off the table by the government long ago, and knives painted as weapons, I am not sure that it is all that surprising that they are being carried. My question is, in your part of the US, do the teens feel the need for protection, and if so, what are they carrying, given that they have much more access to everything from pokey key rings up to Glocks?

By the way, I am not suggesting that we should argue for the un-banning of pepper spray! I am just curious how teen culture has developed elsewhere.

I recently listened to a lecture at New Scientist live by by Prof. Manuel Eisner,, he has analysed the reduction in murder since the 1300s around the world particularly male-on -male murder.

From memory Four factors drive a reduction.

Effective Police action, thinking you will be caught.

Effective sentencing.

Reducing the idea of Victimhood and revenge.

A display of harmlessness.





The last one is the one that affects us. When people wore swords fights escalated quickly to lethal violence. Men saw something scary and the fight reaction kicked in.

The current situation where knives are seen as so dangerous You can't use a Swiss Army knife to peel an apple in public might make actually increase the level of violent crime.

 

[Janne]

By banning carrying a knife the criminal knows that him having a knife, no matter the size, puts him in a huge advantage. The victim has nothing.

You guys remember the movie Crocodile Dundee where he went to the US and a criminal pulled a knife on him?

Most countries have banned knife carrying, but the knife crime just goes up and up......

A friend that comes from Houston, told me once that no intellectually normal criminal does a holdup or robs a bank or a shop, as a huge % of people carry.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Thanks chaps. That did indeed answer my question. Sorry if I started us off topic

Guzzi Goose, great cross reference! Thank you for that!!

Janne,
There is more at play than whether a potential victim might be carrying a weapon. This is an argument that has been rolled out in the UK by shooters, maybe because it is used so often in the US. While there appears to be a correlation between falls in certain types of crime and whether a US area (state, county, city or town) has rules allowing citizens to be armed, or require mandatory gun ownership, like Kennesaw GA, I don't think it should be taken as a universal truth, and certainly not for the UK. The argument presupposes two things; first that the armed citizens won't create more problems for the community than the crime they were trying to prevent, and second, that the people have a temperament and mindset that they will indeed step up to protect family, home and community. I do not think that either of those generally apply in the parts of the UK that I have lived in. Most people here don't want to be armed so that they themselves can fight crime, and they don't want to live in a community where all their neighbours might be armed. I don't think that is a particularly recent development either.


I have been recently wondering what the crime rates would be like if the government hadn't been taking all these incremental steps legislating against knife carry, and had not made so much effort to have them portrayed as weapons in the press. Would crime be loads worse in a world where 15 and 16 year olds were allowed to buy knives and lock knives were accepted every day pocket knives? An idle thought.

 

[Janne]

Is there a time frame for this (possible) change?

 

[Laurentius]

By banning carrying a knife the criminal knows that him having a knife, no matter the size, puts him in a huge advantage. The victim has nothing.

You guys remember the movie Crocodile Dundee where he went to the US and a criminal pulled a knife on him?

Most countries have banned knife carrying, but the knife crime just goes up and up......

A friend that comes from Houston, told me once that no intellectually normal criminal does a holdup or robs a bank or a shop, as a huge % of people carry.

Absolute nonsense though. I unfortunatly live in a somewhat rough area, there was a stabbing at the leisure centre in the next street to me only a week or so ago, some gang rivalry drug dealing thing. I would not be surprised if a lot of kids don't carry some kind of blade around here for a false sense of security and that is all it is.

So everybody carries knieves then some folk feel the need for swords, so everybody carries swords then some folk feel the need for guns, so everybody carries guns then some folk feel the need for automatic weapons, so everybody carries automatic weapons so some folk feel the need for RPG's and so it goes on, Afghanistan anybody?

 

[mark.177]

carrying for self defense is a waste of time. if someone has it in there mind to stab you you wont have time to react before its all over. many many years ago (back in the late 70's) when i was 9 years old my friend was grabbed and stabbed multiple times in a playing park here in cornwall! by a mental patient. it was over in seconds and neither of us had time to even scream. she survived thankfully after being carried half a mile by her older sister to the local hospital

 

[Janne]

Well, let us agree that we disagree.

I hope I will be able to re import my blades back to UK when I move back. In worst case I guess I have to bring a nice piece of flint when I go fishing there again, and make a blade on site.

 

[Robson Valley]

Lots of work to make a stabbing blade from flint! Wait! Wait! I'm nearly ready!

At the same time, 'first strike' flint edges are sharper than any metal can be.
Everybody in BCUK ought to use them in raw meat.