The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

[Old Bones]

What tools have we lost? Most restricted or banned items are usually banned because their primary use is as weapons not tools.

Totally agree. I'm seeing a lot of strawmen on this thread, where people are conjuring up fantasies of 'knife carry licences', etc. Yes, pretty much anything could in theory be used as a weapon, but as someone so rightly pointed out, schoolchildren dont go to school armed with nine irons, etc.

In reality, internet knife sales would be pretty much under the same rules as I have to follow in retail with kitchen knives and age restricted items, and which I have to have mandatory training in every six months. Knives are tools, but they are also weapons. Sadly, on the net, nobody can tell if people are buying a knife for reason a) or b). And they certainly cant check if that person is of legal age to purchase an item at all - on the internet, nobody knows your a dog.

Its not perfect for people who make knives, but there will be ways to cope with any new rules, and of course they can also advise on the best way to keep people safe, while not forcing people out of business. Storm in tiny teacup.

 

[Braidsta]

Totally agree. I'm seeing a lot of strawmen on this thread, where people are conjuring up fantasies of 'knife carry licences', etc. Yes, pretty much anything could in theory be used as a weapon, but as someone so rightly pointed out, schoolchildren dont go to school armed with nine irons, etc.

In reality, internet knife sales would be pretty much under the same rules as I have to follow in retail with kitchen knives and age restricted items, and which I have to have mandatory training in every six months. Knives are tools, but they are also weapons. Sadly, on the net, nobody can tell if people are buying a knife for reason a) or b). And they certainly cant check if that person is of legal age to purchase an item at all - on the internet, nobody knows your a dog.

Its not perfect for people who make knives, but there will be ways to cope with any new rules, and of course they can also advise on the best way to keep people safe, while not forcing people out of business. Storm in tiny teacup.

Thanks for injecting some calm into this, it's given me and I'm sure others, some assurance. I've only had knives properly in my life for a few years so haven't experienced any reforms or clamp downs before, it was sounding like sad times.

 

[daveO]

Everything can be used as a weapon, and cause harm, an Item only becomes a weapon when it is used to cause harm.
A tool is anything that is used to do something, for example, a stick can be used as a lever, thus it becomes a tool, a brick can become a hammer, etc, etc,
Hit someone with a stick, or a brick, and they become weapons, a knife is a bit of metal sandwiched between two pieces of wood, use it to cut a limb off a tree, its a tool, use it to cut string, its a tool, only when it is used to hurt or scare someone is it a weapon, if its sitting in a drawer at home, its just an item, and funny enough we are losing the knives, but not the sticks or the bricks, etc.

I'm not sure if you're argueing with me or agreeing. The list of banned items are all things that are designed as weapons. Designed as weapons not used as weapons. There's a crucial difference. It's like the newest law regarding 'zombie knives', you can buy a tool without the childish rubbish spray-painted on the side and it's a legal to own tool but paint 'zombie killer' on it and it has clear intent to be used as a weapon. You don't buy knuckle dusters for any other reason but as a weapon. They can be sat in your drawer at home but that doesn't stop them being a weapon.

 

[Kjetil]

just a quick note from the foreigner in here in case its helpful. Forgive me for having opinions on your internal matters, I know its a bit cheeky, but its meant well as an outsiders input. Should you feel I should not have an opinion on this just disregard my whole post here

The approach used here in Norway is that the community of outdoorspeople, hunters, fishers etc mainly support a policy of strong regulations and usually banning of any weapon made with the purpose of harming other people. At the same time we insist that our knives, rifles and shotguns are tools for a healthy outdoorslife and should therefore be regulated as such. Supporting sale of 50 cal weapons would never seem sensible to me as its a caliber mainly for military use. Same goes for less powerful stuff if it has any leaning whatsoever towards looking like something meant to harm people such as batangaknives, spring knives, pepperspray, batons, etc. By taking such a position I can have my a knives and guns while making sure no one would see me as some self-defence or survivalist extremist, but a sensible person with a healthy and wholesome hobby of going off to the woods, lakes and mountains.
The latter is someone society tends to be listening to, the former tends scare people.

The UK seems to have a very, very healthy tradition for bushcraft and hunting and the tools that goes along. My recommendation is that you focus your effort on keeping that instead of getting mad that a caliber with no proper hunting application gets banned. Same goes for knives. I would think the fact that knives like these are legal is hurting your case: http://www.knifewarehouse.co.uk/product/godfather-spring-assisted-stiletto-knife/. Why not try to help getting stuff like this banned in a way that keeps useful folders legal instead of keeping them both?

 

[mikehill]

Just out of interest .. are there any other uk bushcraft forums ?

 

[Stew]

Totally agree. I'm seeing a lot of strawmen on this thread, where people are conjuring up fantasies of 'knife carry licences', etc. Yes, pretty much anything could in theory be used as a weapon, but as someone so rightly pointed out, schoolchildren dont go to school armed with nine irons, etc.

In reality, internet knife sales would be pretty much under the same rules as I have to follow in retail with kitchen knives and age restricted items, and which I have to have mandatory training in every six months. Knives are tools, but they are also weapons. Sadly, on the net, nobody can tell if people are buying a knife for reason a) or b). And they certainly cant check if that person is of legal age to purchase an item at all - on the internet, nobody knows your a dog.

Its not perfect for people who make knives, but there will be ways to cope with any new rules, and of course they can also advise on the best way to keep people safe, while not forcing people out of business. Storm in tiny teacup.

Eh?

Storm in a tiny teacup?

Internet knife sales are already under the same rules as retail from an actual shop. These rules would take it even further basically making it so you can't buy a knife on the internet at all.

Not perfect for people who make knives? Yep - basically there will be no market. Maybe there is some other means of 'coping' I can't see.

How is that a little thing?

 

[daveO]

Royal Mail already offer a service where you can pick up a parcel from the depot or post office and you get a discount off the postsge costs for doing it. All they have to do is add a tag to say check ID and the problem has already gone away. Click and collect locations are already set up in loads of supermarkets and shops for various courier companies which will help keep competitive rates for delivery.

 

[Fadcode]

I'm not sure if you're argueing with me or agreeing. The list of banned items are all things that are designed as weapons. Designed as weapons not used as weapons. There's a crucial difference. It's like the newest law regarding 'zombie knives', you can buy a tool without the childish rubbish spray-painted on the side and it's a legal to own tool but paint 'zombie killer' on it and it has clear intent to be used as a weapon. You don't buy knuckle dusters for any other reason but as a weapon. They can be sat in your drawer at home but that doesn't stop them being a weapon.

I assume you would ban boxing gloves then, as their sole purpose is to bash the opponent...................................and I have never read in the papers that a Zombie has actually been killed by a knife, Zombies don't exist, and just because a knife has green paint on it doesn't make it dangerous, many people collect military Items and weapons, should they all lose their collection? And incidentally Swords are not Illegal weapons, and they are not banned , so I think your argument goes out of the window

And just to put you straight, Royal Mail will not handle weapons of any description.

 

[Woodcutter2]

Survey done

Just in the middle of sorting the new website too!!!

 

[Dave]

Well there goes my dream of getting a 50 calibre hawken! [Jeremiah with his 30 cal and .50 cal] Apparently they do sell .53 and .68 cal though!

 

[Janne]

Off Topic:
Boxing gloves are in fact protecting the opponent.
The Romans (and Greeks?) were more manly, they bound the hands with leather strips over copper or lead plates.

I hope no state bans historic bladed weapons. Japanese swords, even the British WW2 era daggers are important to preserve by collectors for the future.

 

[Fadcode]

Just another thought on this ban to private addresses, I would assume that the retailer,( Internet or retail shop) in order to ensure complying with the ban, would mark the Item in such a way that it was obvious that it cannot be delivered without a ID and Age check, etc, obviously this will incur a cost, as no doubt a card will need dropping into your residential address to inform you the Item is available for collection, from a certain point, will this depend on which courier the retailer uses, and what happens if they don't have a depot near to your home, far north of Scotland, areas of Wales, for example, or down here in the West Country where most of the couriers are based in Exeter, or Plymouth.

I am thinking what is going to happen regarding items posted from abroad, will they automatically be confiscated?, will you need to go to the Port of entry to collect them? or will they need to be handled by a certain courier, and therefore be collected from one of their depots, etc,

It seems to me that its going to be very inconvenient both to buy from internet, or other retailers (by phone) and collect the Item without a lot of fuss and expense. Which no doubt is the Govt's intention.

Hopefully we will see a growth in Bushcraft related Fairs, where at least you will be able to buy, face to face from the maker/retailer.

 

[Fadcode]

Well there goes my dream of getting a 50 calibre hawken! [Jeremiah with his 30 cal and .50 cal] Apparently they do sell .53 and .68 cal though!

keep your eye out for someone frozen, with it still in his hand............lol

 

[Dave]

Couldnt the banks just incorporate the age verification thing onto a bank card? They put loads of other info on there. [They owe us a few favours and a few trillion....]

 

[Old Bones]

The approach used here in Norway is that the community of outdoorspeople, hunters, fishers etc mainly support a policy of strong regulations and usually banning of any weapon made with the purpose of harming other people. At the same time we insist that our knives, rifles and shotguns are tools for a healthy outdoorslife and should therefore be regulated as such. Supporting sale of 50 cal weapons would never seem sensible to me as its a caliber mainly for military use. Same goes for less powerful stuff if it has any leaning whatsoever towards looking like something meant to harm people such as batangaknives, spring knives, pepperspray, batons, etc. By taking such a position I can have my a knives and guns while making sure no one would see me as some self-defence or survivalist extremist, but a sensible person with a healthy and wholesome hobby of going off to the woods, lakes and mountains.
The latter is someone society tends to be listening to, the former tends scare people.

This sounds like a proportionate, sensible and balanced approach, and catches perfectly the need for responsibility as well as rights, as well as thinking about what is needed, and what is accepted by the general public.

Internet knife sales are already under the same rules as retail from an actual shop. These rules would take it even further basically making it so you can't buy a knife on the internet at all.

But the problem is that a retailer has to actually look at the person, and can refuse to sell the product if they are under 18 (in fact, 'Think 25' is the advice). On the net, who you say you are isn't who you are. As this article on the legislation points out https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...line-to-private-addresses-illegal-knife-crime a 16 year old was able to buy a flick knife from Amazon, with no real checks at all, and six months later, a newspaper was still able to get hold of them from the same source.

True, online knife retailer can take extensive precautions http://www.knifewarehouse.co.uk/age-restrictions/ , but its still not the same as actually looking at someone - ID can be forged, etc. On the other hand, I notice that Hennie Hayes already uses UPS click and collect, where you have to provide proof of identity, so much of the existing setup would be perfectly fine. And specialist makers might not be as disadvantaged as some might think - again, the use of agents able to check ID might be OK, and for niche producers, people might be quite willing to travel anyway.

 

[daveO]

I assume you would ban boxing gloves then, as their sole purpose is to bash the opponent...................................and I have never read in the papers that a Zombie has actually been killed by a knife, Zombies don't exist, and just because a knife has green paint on it doesn't make it dangerous, many people collect military Items and weapons, should they all lose their collection? And incidentally Swords are not Illegal weapons, and they are not banned , so I think your argument goes out of the window

And just to put you straight, Royal Mail will not handle weapons of any description.

Royal mail are happy to deliver knives. Please stop posting things without checking your facts as this thread is intended to help people affected by the proposed legislation. Royal mail and other couriers also use text message and email now to alert you when your parcel is ready. A lot of your concerns are addressed as psrt of the consultation if you fancy reading the documents.

 

[Dave]

Err, 3 local post offices to me have rejected taking knives and an axe. Even though Ive called their head office, and each time, they say it was a mistake, and the post office should have accepted them.

If it ever happens to you, you can ask them to ring their superiors and double check. I got that miffed with them, I complained, and got a cheque for £20.

[Course it didnt help that the guy who rejected the tomahawk, had been robbed by someone with an axe a week earlier.]

 

[Fadcode]

Royal mail are happy to deliver knives. Please stop posting things without checking your facts as this thread is intended to help people affected by the proposed legislation. Royal mail and other couriers also use text message and email now to alert you when your parcel is ready. A lot of your concerns are addressed as psrt of the consultation if you fancy reading the documents.

You may need to re-read the previous posts, I said Royal mail will not handle WEAPONS of any description, also Down here in Cornwall you are lucky to get a signal on your phone never mind the Broadband, same up in the remotes of Scotland, and Wales, its allright if you live near a big city, own a car, and have the Post office next door, and incidentally who said the Post Office would be handling the sales of knives etc, anyway, obviously it will depend on the retailer who he uses, so try and stick to facts, not assumptions.

 

[santaman2000]

Teenage kids don't go to school with golf clubs and baseball bats in their pockets...

Actually Little League baseball starts well before "teenage." The youngest class (T-Ball) starts around age 4. By the time kids reach their teenage years, Little League is over and they join their school's teams (but they still have to bring their own bats)

 

[Chui]

Actually Little League baseball starts well before "teenage." The youngest class (T-Ball) starts around age 4. By the time kids reach their teenage years, Little League is over and they join their school's teams (but they still have to bring their own bats)

- hardly to do with the gist of what I was saying...