The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

[C_Claycomb]

I know I'm generally being ignored on this thread but it is really important to stick to the facts when writing to your MP. A 2 second google search will find instances of flick knife arrests in the last couple of years alone so saying they haven't been seen since the 80s or that no flick knife crime occurs these days just makes you sound naive.

http://www.cambstimes.co.uk/news/ma...eing-in-possession-of-a-flick-knife-1-4755995

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/dog-stabbed-death-flick-knife-12710303

Also does your MP really need to waste his time telling you why a restriction on alcohol sales isn't included in the 'offensive and dangerous weapons act'?

DaveO,

thank you for raising these! I will repost on Edge Matters.

I may not agree with you on all points, but I am not ignoring you. Have you noticed that I changed the title of this thread almost as soon as you pointed out that it was misleading? I would love to be able to be able to filter and fact check every part of every statement everyone on here makes, to ensure that only "truth" is repeated, but that isn't possible, not least because figuring out what is truth and what is opinion, bias, or previous misinformation in such a contentious debate is dang hard. Would I use the same statements in a letter of my own? No, I want to be sure that I can support and back up what I write. Do those letters give me ideas and inspiration, most certainly.

Maybe it is worth being more deliberate and thoughtful before writing to MPs, spending time doing more research. Just so long as one doesn't get analysis paralysis and fail to post anything at all.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Why do you write 'irresponsible'?????

Only irresponsible if it is given without any instructions or teaching in its use.

Many of my friends were gifted their first shotgun and small bore rifle well before the age of 10.

A good way of making people responsible gun and knife owners and users is to start them off early. You know, I never saw a knife as something you took to school and showed off with.
Had I done so all guys (and most girls) would have laughed behind my back, or to my face, as most had own knives....

We need to foster a culture that looks on knives as useful tools, not some 'cool gangsta' accessories.

I could not agree more. I believe a big cause of the problem "knife culture" we have today is that the previous culture died out. We lost an adequate number of older knife using role models to show knives as tools. Instead there was a vacuum and a media ready to call them weapons.

I don't see how we can fix the problem without a culture shift, but nor can I see society ever making such a shift. ☹️

 

[Stew]

Why do you write 'irresponsible'?????

Only irresponsible if it is given without any instructions or teaching in its use.

Many of my friends were gifted their first shotgun and small bore rifle well before the age of 10.

A good way of making people responsible gun and knife owners and users is to start them off early. You know, I never saw a knife as something you took to school and showed off with.
Had I done so all guys (and most girls) would have laughed behind my back, or to my face, as most had own knives....

We need to foster a culture that looks on knives as useful tools, not some 'cool gangsta' accessories.

He was talking about airsoft guns.

 

[Janne]

Aha, post 206 does mention he sold airsoft toys.
Even worse, saying parents were irresponsible if they bought the toys and gave them to their kids to play with.
I understand that they were without an age restriction, but the shop had an own imposed age limit...?

C_claycomb, I do not think this is possible. People like Ray Mears, even the likes of Grylls ( despite his ****ty mil/surviving designs) show the population that knives/sharp edged implements are useful tools, but unfortunately the authorities equal those with crime.

 

[Janne]

This is a very good post in this debate but nobody has mentioned it, or commented.
Sometimes good ideas can be imported from outside the UK.......

just a quick note from the foreigner in here in case its helpful. Forgive me for having opinions on your internal matters, I know its a bit cheeky, but its meant well as an outsiders input. Should you feel I should not have an opinion on this just disregard my whole post here

The approach used here in Norway is that the community of outdoorspeople, hunters, fishers etc mainly support a policy of strong regulations and usually banning of any weapon made with the purpose of harming other people. At the same time we insist that our knives, rifles and shotguns are tools for a healthy outdoorslife and should therefore be regulated as such. Supporting sale of 50 cal weapons would never seem sensible to me as its a caliber mainly for military use. Same goes for less powerful stuff if it has any leaning whatsoever towards looking like something meant to harm people such as batangaknives, spring knives, pepperspray, batons, etc. By taking such a position I can have my a knives and guns while making sure no one would see me as some self-defence or survivalist extremist, but a sensible person with a healthy and wholesome hobby of going off to the woods, lakes and mountains.
The latter is someone society tends to be listening to, the former tends scare people.

The UK seems to have a very, very healthy tradition for bushcraft and hunting and the tools that goes along. My recommendation is that you focus your effort on keeping that instead of getting mad that a caliber with no proper hunting application gets banned. Same goes for knives. I would think the fact that knives like these are legal is hurting your case: http://www.knifewarehouse.co.uk/product/godfather-spring-assisted-stiletto-knife/. Why not try to help getting stuff like this banned in a way that keeps useful folders legal instead of keeping them both?

 

[hughtrimble]

This is a very good post in this debate but nobody has mentioned it, or commented.
Sometimes good ideas can be imported from outside the UK.......

Sorry, but it's because it's unbelievably naïve to think like that, that's why I at least haven't commented on it. Help them ban things to make it less likely they ban other things?! Yeah, that's not the way it ever works.

 

[Janne]

Sorry, but you just do not get it. We help them banning stuff we know we do not want in our hobbies. Zombie knives. Startrek swords. Crap.
You let the byreaucrats decide without your input what you can buy and use. The questionnaire you can answer, which several have already done?


Does anybody even remotely think they will for one single second ponder the answers.

Yes, it works! It does!
That is why you can own and shoot any handgun you want in our countries.Hunt. Fish.
Need a knife? Really? Well, just go down to the nearest sport, nature, building, fishing - store and buy what you like!

You know, most knifes I bought this year ( to rehandle) I bought at the local Coop!

 

[shibafu]

I can imagine that for sales within the UK, this ID requirement might be an easily solved problem. As has been previously mentioned, the Royal Mail could offer a service where the sender can specify that the recipient should have to collect from the post office and present ID. OK for 99% of the UK, if not for those in remote areas. But how will international deliveries be affected? There will be no such shipping service in other countries.
If a seller in the UK ships directly to a residential address in another country without requiring ID at point of delivery, are they committing the offence? If so, it could kill quite a few businesses that rely to a significant extent on international sales.
And what if I order a knife from abroad? Will it be seized by customs for being illegally shipped without requiring ID? Sellers will stop shipping to the UK if that happens. Depending on how the legislation is drafted, it could effectively end personal import of knives.

 

[shibafu]

I read a piece in the paper yesterday about proposed changes to the antique firearms laws, I'm guessing that'll be part of the same bill. Currently if a firearm is pre-1939 and of a designated "obsolete calibre" for which ammunition is no longer available, you can own it as a curio without a license. It seems they're proposing moving the date cut-off back to 1900, and introducing some sort of new licensing requirement.

 

[Janne]

Once a knife is out of UK jurisdiction surely it should be fine?

It should not state on the package that it is a requirement that the recipient is over 18 and has to show ID, not if the recipients country does not require it.
The seller from UK should ensure that the description of the goods inside follow the rules of the country where it goes.

I have stuff shipped from N. America and Europe all the time, and have to tell the companies that sells the goods exactly what to put on the description. Works well.

 

[Kepis]

Just emailed my MP and the Home Secretary, will post up any response i get from them, dont hold your breath though.

 

[Corso]

So with all this ban banter on here has anyone actually responded to the consultation?

I've good money it'll be questions 9-13 that will guide a sensible work around. The government loves money...

 

[santaman2000]

Sorry, but you just do not get it. We help them banning stuff we know we do not want in our hobbies. Zombie knives. Startrek swords. Crap. ...

The problem with that logic is just who are the "we' that don't want these items? My hobby and yours might be quite different. in any case, banning is usually a progressive thing. One or two items are banned today, then next week another is added. Next month still another item is added and more at the end of the year. The process goes on and on forever.

 

[santaman2000]

Once a knife is out of UK jurisdiction surely it should be fine?....

Yes, but how does it get out of the UK jurisdiction without going through UK Post or currier services? it might not be so black and white.

 

[santaman2000]

Only an irresponsible wealthy parent would have been able to afford the 300 quid plus, that they were selling for in the late 1990's.

At that price they might be better off (wealthier) than most but hardly irresponsible. You were talking about a toy after all. It's difficult to imagine that price for an air soft gun. Even back in the 80s they were less than $60 here (about 40 pounds) for the really good ones. Heck, the real guns I bought my grandkids were, and still are, far, far less than that. I guess the supply and demand there vs here must be to blame?

 

[Janne]

Santa, he did mention they kept the prices at a high margin to discourage them getting into the wrong hands.
So only the wealthy irresponsible parents could buy them ( to give to their spoit brats?)

 

[Laurentius]

For what it is worth, I recently ordered a long handled Bill hook, basically a medieval pole arm from Ebay and had it delivered to my nearest Argos store, as it was more convenient for my to collect it than to be in for delivery by courier. Collecting items is sometimes more convenient. Didn't have any problems taking it on the bus back home either, as the blade was well wrapped up in bubblewrap and plastic, although one passenger guessed it must be some kind of gardening tool.

There is more than one issue at stake here, only one of which has to do with extending the definition of a flick knife well beyond the reasonable. I am actually more worried about the effect of brexit on importation of items from Europe, given what I have read about the problems of importing certain kinds of blade from the USA and the attitudes of Mountjoy Post Office for whom it would appear that every locker is a gravity knife.

 

[petrochemicals]

Have they forgot about the telephone? And are not credit debit cards age restricted anyway?

 

[shibafu]

Once a knife is out of UK jurisdiction surely it should be fine?

It depends how they draft the law. If the law says you mustn't send a knife direct to a customer, then the seller might have committed the offence as soon as they put it in the post box, regardless of where the customer is.
Personally I'm more worried about the other direction. It'll be a shame if we can no longer order scramaseaxes from Finland or collectible SAKs from Switzerland because the sellers don't have access to the right sort of delivery service... or don't know how to access the service, or simply no longer want to bother themselves with the details of UK law.

 

[daveO]

I expect customs will pick up the slack on overseas purchases. Either the item will be marked properly as a bladed item or they'll check the parcel and mark it up themselves. Either way you'll probably get a letter similar to the customs charge ransom notes that parcel force issue telling you to come and get it from the depot with appropriate ID. Part of the consultation mentions the problems with dealing with overseas purchases though but as usual it's far too vague at this stage.

We are also considering whether the offences should also apply to catalogue/mail order service sales of knives and to delivery services for knives ordered online from abroad.

For a UK seller sending knives abroad I think you usually abide by the laws in the purchasing country. I've seen shops use disclaimers to that effect.