Wording of ‘zombie knife and machete’ ban being reported?

[Woody girl]

Just watched a yt from fast jet performance, an ex fighter pilot. Talks a lot of sense. He quoted from the office of national statistics......half of all stabbings were committed with a kitchen knife..... which we all know are freely available in any kitchenware aisle.
Perhaps we should ban kitchen knives too? They are much easier to conceal than a zombie knife.
I think this is all a*** about face.
A knife is a tool, but fast becoming imprinted in our minds as a weapon. In fact, almost anything can be a weapon. If someone put their mind to it, serious damage could be done with a set of chopsticks, or a knitting needle, (bang up all those Chinese take away customers, and little old ladies knitting for charity for goodness sake!)
This legislation is no more than a sticking plaster. Yes, ban sales and imports of these zombie items, and create a black market and fill smugglers pockets.
There is a bigger problem here which needs tackling.
A certain demographic seems to be the worst offenders..and I don't want to get all political, but I saw a report of police asking a particular demographic to please put all their nasty weapons back inside their religious building and they wouldn't get arrested! ***!!!!
Meanwhile, we are questioning if, and worried that, we will get into trouble for carrying a tool that we use as a tool to a bit of woodland to whittle a pot hanger! Something many of us have done for many years with no desire or intention to damage anyone, or anything worse than a bit of wood or parracord.

Sorry to get ranty, and a bit close to the edge, but I'm fed up with the statistics... a couple of days ago in the UK, it was 51 attacks in 31 days, and those were the ones we know about. Most were minors, or women.
Something is rotten in the state of Britain. (To misquote our most famous literary person)
So to sum up, bans are useless in the long run. Laws will always be broken and there are many more people nowadays who have no respect for the law, and its "enforcers." Who either ask them politely to put them away, or run for their lives.(.and who wouldnt if you are not equipped to deal with it, as you are told to take a softly softly approach with those certain people, while average joe is an easy target, so hit them hard?)
So what is the solution?

Sorry, tired and worried about the situation. I can't run if I'm faced with a situation, and I know many women young and old, round here, which so far is relatively safe, who are speaking out about their fears too.

 

[Wildgoose]

does anyone here use a multi pointed, part serrated, multiple holed blade for bushcraft?

The banned knives are probably best described as weapons. They are designed and marketed to appeal as such.

There may be a couple of Rambo knives or machetes that are close to the line but by and large I can’t see this impacting us too much.

Any knife, stick, brick, golf club can be a weapon, yes, but these zombie knives are designed to be used primary as such.

 

[Woody girl]

True, but I have a feeling they start with this, and before we know it, it covers everything under the sun. The real problem isn't being tackled.
We have laws about knives in public, and fair enough, but there are some little girls and a soldier that would say those laws didn't make a lot of difference to what happened to them.

 

[Laurentius]

does anyone here use a multi pointed, part serrated, multiple holed blade for bushcraft?

The banned knives are probably best described as weapons. They are designed and marketed to appeal as such.

There may be a couple of Rambo knives or machetes that are close to the line but by and large I can’t see this impacting us too much.

Any knife, stick, brick, golf club can be a weapon, yes, but these zombie knives are designed to be used primary as such.

They are best described as juvenile fantasies, I for one would not dream of using one as a weapon, would be more likely to injure myself on all the sharp edges. The problem is that the law should be going after the cynical manufacturers and marketers that come up with such designs in the first place as they know damn well they are selling the threat of violence and injury for pure profit.

 

[Wildgoose]

With the ban in place the knives will be illegal to import and sell in the UK. Some may get through but the law would allow for prosecution, or seizure at least.

The new law is not about replacing the offences of murder or carrying a weapon. It’s about getting the weapons out of the homes and therefore hands of those on the fringes of violence.

We’ve all seen the seaside shops that sell “samurai” swords, ninja knives and nunchucks, generally along with bongs, pipes and other specialist smoking materials.

Some purists and martial arts experts may need to read up on the new law, but most of the target audience seem to be teens who think one of these cheap mass produced blades will turn them into Bruce Lee.

 

[Van-Wild]

does anyone here use a multi pointed, part serrated, multiple holed blade for bushcraft?

The banned knives are probably best described as weapons. They are designed and marketed to appeal as such.

There may be a couple of Rambo knives or machetes that are close to the line but by and large I can’t see this impacting us too much.

Any knife, stick, brick, golf club can be a weapon, yes, but these zombie knives are designed to be used primary as such.

There's a sensible, objective view on it!

The law empowers the police when approaching and dealing with people who carry such knives in the streets. There has to be a step forward in tackling knife crime.

If I were stopped in the street and found in possession of a bladed article of any description, I would at the very least expect to have to explain why I have it in a public place. I certainly wouldn't be carrying a fixed blade in the street. Asking for a collar off the police, and rightly so.

Of course, I do carry a fixed blade when in the woods. But here's the thing: I've never seen a police officer randomly in the woods, and if I did, and were indeed questioned by the police officer about my fixed blade, I would be in a very strong position to explain why i have it.

Sent from my SM-A546B using Tapatalk

 

[slowworm]

does anyone here use a multi pointed, part serrated, multiple holed blade for bushcraft?

Does anyone need more than one or two knives to practice bushcraft? Probably not but many people seem to have rather large collections.

No one is defending someone carrying a weapon to attack someone with, of any description.

What is a concern is where the ban has made commonly held tools become illegal. Possibly the double edged billhook or a machete with a saw back.

And I can easily see cases where they could cause issue and possibly serious consequences for the owner.

What concerns me the most though is this is a ban built on a previous ban where common sense was ignored. I wonder where it will lead to, perhaps knife licences in 20 years time?

 

[Chris]

Once they have banned everything other than kitchen knives and find out that people are still being stabbed, the government might realise spending money on policing might have actually been more helpful than making different shapes and colours of knife illegal.

 

[Laurentius]

And I can easily see cases where they could cause issue and possibly serious consequences for the owner.

What concerns me the most though is this is a ban built on a previous ban where common sense was ignored. I wonder where it will lead to, perhaps knife licences in 20 years time?

Firstly in order for a potentially illegal tool to be found, the police would have to enter and search your house, or garden shed, and they would need a good reason to do that, which might suggest that you had committed a crime of some sort. The police do not randomly knock on your castle door asking to search your kitchen drawer so far as I am aware. If the police do visit on some other occasion and they do not suspect you to be a person of violence then they are not likely to question your wall hangers if they are not obviously a banned item. The prisons are overflowing as it is they don't want pointless prosecutions. Yes I know miscarriages of justice do occur, but so do car accidents and heart attacks. I do have a double edged billhook but I am not in the least worried, it is clearly not what the legislation is aimed at and never was.

 

[matarius777]

As someone involved in the enforcement of these laws I think the new law is step forward. The old requirements for words or images inciting violence was a big hinderance in getting dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people and getting them off the street. The reality is that any tool available to tackle the epidemic of youth violence is a help.

I think the biggest tool would be to give young people in deprived areas hope, jobs worth having and above all real, decent positive role models in youth clubs, to catch them early. A hell of a lot of knife attacks involve kitchen knives. They will always be able to access weapons of some description. Give them something else to focus on.

 

[Chris]

Firstly in order for a potentially illegal tool to be found, the police would have to enter and search your house, or garden shed, and they would need a good reason to do that, which might suggest that you had committed a crime of some sort. The police do not randomly knock on your castle door asking to search your kitchen drawer so far as I am aware. If the police do visit on some other occasion and they do not suspect you to be a person of violence then they are not likely to question your wall hangers if they are not obviously a banned item. The prisons are overflowing as it is they don't want pointless prosecutions. Yes I know miscarriages of justice do occur, but so do car accidents and heart attacks. I do have a double edged billhook but I am not in the least worried, it is clearly not what the legislation is aimed at and never was.

So why ban them then? As you said, they’re probably already up to no good.

 

[slowworm]

Firstly in order for a potentially illegal tool to be found, the police would have to enter and search your house, or garden shed, and they would need a good reason to do that, which might suggest that you had committed a crime of some sort.

Not necessarily, no. I'm thinking of tools which are used, not decorative items or whatever.

I know of someone who uses a now possibly banned tool for normal work and on at least one occasion police have turned up.

He was certainly not committing any sort of crime and your comments on good reason seem a little naive. For example, I've been pulled over whilst driving my car on several occasions without any good reason what so ever. One reason was 'because you're two blokes in a car during the day'!

 

[Laurentius]

Not necessarily, no. I'm thinking of tools which are used, not decorative items or whatever.

I know of someone who uses a now possibly banned tool for normal work and on at least one occasion police have turned up.

He was certainly not committing any sort of crime and your comments on good reason seem a little naive. For example, I've been pulled over whilst driving my car on several occasions without any good reason what so ever. One reason was 'because you're two blokes in a car during the day'!

As for tools that look like they marginally fit the new descriptors, it will not be for the police to determine if it goes to court, it will be for a judge and I am sure a proper defence can be put forward. Such a case would have to have regard to what parliament intended and I am fairly sure they did not intend to outlaw proper working tools. It could even be argued that the law itself was invalid, if that were the case because a judicial review could be brought as I would think (Black Belt Barrister where art thou?) human rights law comes into play here as that would be interfering with the ability to carry out a legal occupation. You will have the cops coming onto the stage of the RSC next in the middle of Hamlet, to prevent an affray. Never mind re-enactors with medieval bills and halberds. If I were to show my bill hook to the police officer who is on our allotment committee and ask him if it were a zombie knife, I expect he would just laugh. I have not been stopped in my car myself for well over a decade and had the police searched my car on that occasion they would have found a machete.

 

[Chris]

As for tools that look like they marginally fit the new descriptors, it will not be for the police to determine if it goes to court, it will be for a judge and I am sure a proper defence can be put forward. Such a case would have to have regard to what parliament intended and I am fairly sure they did not intend to outlaw proper working tools. It could even be argued that the law itself was invalid, if that were the case because a judicial review could be brought as I would think (Black Belt Barrister where art thou?) human rights law comes into play here as that would be interfering with the ability to carry out a legal occupation. You will have the cops coming onto the stage of the RSC next in the middle of Hamlet, to prevent an affray. Never mind re-enactors with medieval bills and halberds. If I were to show my bill hook to the police officer who is on our allotment committee and ask him if it were a zombie knife, I expect he would just laugh. I have not been stopped in my car myself for well over a decade and had the police searched my car on that occasion they would have found a machete.

That's all well and good if you have tens of thousands of pounds spare, the time and the mental resilience to deal with being prosecuted by the CPS to set precedent for a law which likely won't prevent a single death.

 

[Paul_B]

View attachment 89799

Hmmmm, so where would billhooks like this fall, illegal item or a tool?


View attachment 89800

Two points with an angle less than 90 degrees is an issue so if you have one can you grind out the end point of the back, straight edge to 90 degrees or greater? It would not affect its use but eliminates two point issues.

The hole is single but the wording says holes plural. Not an issue probably. BTCV and national trust working parties up and down the country probably have similar bilhooks in their toolboxes.

 

[Paul_B]

The point is this change is to eliminate the need for zombie or biohazard symbolism to be zombie knives.

There was a news reporter on TV a week or so ago who rode with Bristol police who target knife crime which has been rising dramatically in the city. They told him to be there for 10am ride out. Within minutes they'd stopped teenagers with two having zombie style knives. They can confiscate them but until the new laws come into effect they can't be prosecuted. The kids were 15 and 17 with younger in the back iirc.

This is meant to be about targeting the ne'erdowells that are part of the knife crime demographic. Increasingly it's younger kids too. Whilst confronting this mentality with good role models and teaching them the issues / consequences might be a more proactive, long term response, they still need to give the police the means to prosecute for carrying those knives before they're used.

Without doubt some on here are thinking about their knife and tool collection but I doubt any of you are teenagers likely to be a knife crime statistic as a victim or perpetrator. I doubt you're going to be stopped driving your billhook to work by police targeting the demographic that's causing the knife crime statistics.

If you have something likely to fall foul of the law without a good reason for owning it then either get rid in an amnesty or stag it at home and don't carry it around with you. Don't be the demographic they're looking at for knife crime too. I don't think anyone here is. The usual caveats apply from years ago such as don't be obvious, legal carry knives, legitimate use, be discrete. Above all don't carry stupid knives that aren't really good for anything justifiable. I do think there's a tendency on here to get stressed about any new law on sharp cutty things. Common sense will prevail and you'll not get your collars felt prepping a feather stick with you mora in the hills wildcamping, or hedge laying on the edge of a farm field or any other legitimate use at home or for work.

BTW does anyone have a good reason why a rambo knife is needed? Zombies are fictional but so was Rambo.

 

[hughtrimble]

Within minutes they'd stopped teenagers with two having zombie style knives. They can confiscate them but until the new laws come into effect they can't be prosecuted. The kids were 15 and 17 with younger in the back iirc.

I don't understand this part - you're saying they didn't commit a prosecutable offence by having fixed blades in their possession without good reason?

 

[Laurentius]

Teenage mutant ninja hedge layers.

 

[Herman30]

BTW does anyone have a good reason why a rambo knife is needed? Zombies are fictional but so was Rambo.

Why does it have to be needed? Is it not enough to want to have one for the estethics of it?

 

[slowworm]

I don't understand this part - you're saying they didn't commit a prosecutable offence by having fixed blades in their possession without good reason?

Indeed. And if they can't be prosecuted for carrying a long fixed blade now then when the criminals switch to a long kitchen knife or non-zombie style machete they will still will not be able to be prosecuted.