Survival v Bushcraft?

[rg598]

Why do you call it a zombie killing knife? Which knife do you have in mind?
I base my opinion on my time in the woods. When there is snow on the ground, or when it is wet, splitting wood becomes very important to me. Each time I do it, it goes alot faster with a larger blade.
So the leuku is ok as a knife even though it is 8 in because it's...thin??? Interesting distinction. Once again, I must ask what you mean by a zombie killer.
But ultimately, I think you once again missed my point. Just because you can do something with a knife does not mean it is the best one for the job. I can carve with an axe, but it is not the tool I will bring to a spoon carving contest. For the same reason I will not bring a Mora 106 to split wood. Can I do it? Probably, with some effort. However, that is not the point. If you are telling me on the other hand that you can split and chop wood bust as easily and just as fast as with a small knife as you can with a large knife, then more power to you. Based on my rather large body of actual field time I have reached a rather different conclusion.

PS-I think many people advocating for the 4 in blade have very littel contact with nature other than matching RM, as it has become clear from some other posts. I wouldn't rely too much on them.

 

[rg598]

Andrew, I though we were talking about a survival situation, not backpacking.
As far as fashion, I think there is as much of that with big knives as there is with the woodlore clones.

 

[sandbender]

I think many people advocating for the 4 in blade have very little contact with nature other than matching RM, as it has become clear from some other posts. I wouldn't rely too much on them.

That is a little unfair, you've already told us over on the 'How do you carry it all?' thread that you are not a person "who would go into the woods for 2, 3, 7 days and live there, relying not on modern equipment, but his knowledge of the environment."

Whereas Forestwalker is a person who has "spent well over a month out in actual (simulated) survival conditions, and many, many months of more normal bush time."

 

[rg598]

My comment was not directed to Forestwalker. I've already told him I respect the conclusion he has reached based on his own experience.

 

[Andrew_S]

Andrew, I though we were talking about a survival situation, not backpacking.

??

I was responding to your claim that nobody outside the British bushcraft community uses small knives as their primary blade, by pointing out that most outdoors people, in fact, use small knives.

We don't get to choose what knives we get lost with. We get lost with what we carry, and most of us carry smaller blades. Most of the people who end up in "survival situations" in the US are backpackers or day hikers. I'd say what they carry bears directly on the subject.

You seem more concerned with what people advocate using than with what most people actually use. Indeed, more survival-minded people in the US advocate large knives. But I'm leery of what assorted "experts" advocate -- actual case histories are a much better source than the personal prejudices, preferences and assumptions of people who like to talk about survival.

As far as fashion, I think there is as much of that with big knives as there is with the woodlore clones.

Indeed there is. There is also a fashion for Moras. But I don't see that this refutes my view that a preference for big knives in the US has more to do with fashion than practicality.

The preference for large chopping blades seems to come from an artificial limitation, the notion that you have to have one survival blade, in place of a knife, an axe, and a saw. The whole question here has little to do with practicality -- it's a thought experiment that assumes we can only have one tool.

So let me counter that assumption: why can't we have one knife for knife work, and another tool for chopping? Isn't the real question here, "would you rather carry a big knife, or an axe?"

 

[rg598]

??
I'm as confused by your comment as you seem to be by mine.
I was working within the confines of the question. The question did not give the option of an axe, or multiple knives. What knife people actually get lost with has nothing to do with this thread. What one advocates was in fact the question. That is why that's my main focus.

I'm also not sure why the word expert is in quotes when it comes to people who advocate larger knives. Is it because you think people who do that have never been in the woods, or have no experience? I think it is clear that many people who advocate for the other side seem to also lack experience. Which case studies do you have in mind? The Sami? The Hadza?

If you know of any scientific studies done which show that a person can perform the tasks discussed above faster and more easily with a small knife than a large one, please let us know, so we can end the debate once and for all.

As far as my comment about fashion, I meant that I can say the exact same thing about people who select 4 in blades. For every person that you can say uses a large knife because of fashion, I can find a person who uses a 4 in blade for whom I can say the same thing. TV is a powerful thing. The comment about fashion however does not change the validity of either your argument or mine.

 

[Andrew_S]

I was working within the confines of the question.

Okay, and as I pointed out, the question works with a false assumption -- that we are not allowed an axe, etc., just one knife. The real world doesn't work this way. We get lost, stranded or hurt with the kit we carry.

Whatever knife people may advocate as best for a situation that will not occur in the real world is, to be quite frank, irrelevant to anything except online circle jerks. So we come right back to the question I put to you, and which you didn't bother answering: why can't we have one knife for knife work, and another tool for chopping? Isn't the real question here, "would you rather carry a big knife, or an axe?"

If the answer is simply, "because this bogus thought experiment excludes axes," then I have to say that there's nothing to talk about.

I'm also not sure why the word expert is in quotes when it comes to people who advocate larger knives.

The word "expert" is in quotes because, regardless of which approach someone advocates, he needs no qualifications whatsoever to set himself up as a survival expert. Anyone off the street can start a survival school. Anyone can declare himself an expert. And this happens to be one of those areas in which a great many people spout nonsense.

One of the reasons people spout that nonsense is that they've formed their ideas out of bogus thought experiments rather than out of practice.

Among the nonsense that people spout is the notion that you are likely to lose your pack and your kit, and have to fall back on one knife. This simply isn't true.

Which case studies do you have in mind? The Sami? The Hadza?

I believe I used the words "case history" not "case study." I'm referring to the numerous accounts of people who have become lost, stranded, or injured and who had to survive until rescued. Numerous accounts come out every year. I'm not going to cite them all for you.

If you want to know what works and what doesn't when you are lost, hurt, or stranded and waiting for rescue, the best source of information is real-world experience, not imaginary scenarios in which we are only allowed one knife with which to hack a cabin out of the wilds.

 

[rg598]

I'm not sure how to reply to your post. I've never seen anyone hate hypothetical questions so much. At the end of the day however, it is a hypo, and for some reson you have an issue with me answering it as such.

A hypo does not have to be realistic or likely. That is why the question usually starts with "what if..." or "imagine that...". If you don't like it you don't have to answer it. Maybe you have no use for the question, but other people might. Staying on a post just to keep repeating that the question is stupid does no one any good.

Saying that big knives are no good because you always have an axe is not an answer to the question, and I don't see why you are spending so much time going after people who are trying to aswer it the way it was asked. Clearly the question was not silly to the person who posted it, and neither is it to the people who have been attempting to answer. I might disagree with Forestwalker, but at least he is providing arguments for his answer to the asked question. His comments are not useless. People reading the thread might learn something from it. He seems to speak from experience, and people might want to pay attention-I still think I am right though.

If you want to talk about what knife one is most likely to get lost with, then let's start another thread and we can talk about that.

 

[moab]

Okay, and as I pointed out, the question works with a false assumption -- that we are not allowed an axe, etc., just one knife. The real world doesn't work this way. We get lost, stranded or hurt with the kit we carry.

Whatever knife people may advocate as best for a situation that will not occur in the real world is, to be quite frank, irrelevant to anything except online circle jerks. So we come right back to the question I put to you, and which you didn't bother answering: why can't we have one knife for knife work, and another tool for chopping? Isn't the real question here, "would you rather carry a big knife, or an axe?"

If the answer is simply, "because this bogus thought experiment excludes axes," then I have to say that there's nothing to talk about.
.

Andrew S
I find your aggresive tone unnecessary, if you care to read the start of this thread it relates to a specific question about types of blades and not about any other aspect of survival be that axes/knowledge etc ( and there is no reference to not having any other tool).
Whilst I enjoy reading people's views on this and many other matters, sprinkling your replies with offensive terms is not why I signed up to this ordinarily well mannered forum.
Feel free to put your point but lose the attitude and besides, this is supposed to be fun.

 

[Andrew_S]

I don't believe I'm the one who started taking personal shots or using an aggressive tone in this thread. I'm certainly not the one who snidely suggested that his interlocutor had no experience beyond watching television. If my tone offends you, moab, then I apologize, but that is what I was responding to.

In any case, I'm done here. You may all now slag me as much as you like.

 

[tsitenha]

Andrew S, I have noticed that the shorter/folding blade option knives carried by "backpackers" and such are from or in the "southern" part of the province, the larger knives and axes are carried in the "northern" part and in the the off beaten tracks eg canoe routes or off routes all together.

I have carried for most my life, a smaller folding knife, a fixed 4"(approx) on belt and a larger 7" in the pack. Along with an ax, so all of these could be called for to do the proper tasks, if limited to 1 implement it would never be a knife but an ax but it being said would never limit myself to one option.

Even when traveling by car from town to town the kit is always with me, anal possibly but still the reality of it.
You are comfortable with a different list.

Slag is for Sudbury only

 

[OzaawaaMigiziNini]

I simply believe in the concept of the right tool, for the right job. I love Mora knives and other "bushcraft" blades. I've also carried kukri, machetes, Bowies, and your classic "Rambo" knives. The Bowie I found only useful as a wedge for splitting wood, the same goes for the Rambo Knife, though it broke much quicker.

Simply put, when in a survival situation here in Canada, I want to use as little energy as possible when constructing my shelter, gathering my firewood, and making what I need to survive. I also want a tool that will last through as much possible abuse as possible.

For the heavy work, a small knife just in my opinion doesn't get the job done as well as a larger blade (axe or Kukri are prefered, but I've done survival simulations with 25 dollar Cold Steel machetes). If I was lost with just a mora, I could still survive. However, my energy would be lower, due to the amount of physical exertion I would have to put into knocking over rotten trees with my own body, rather than chopping choice sections out of the wood.

The only place I would prefer the smaller "bushcraft" blade, would be in the precise work that would later come (bowdrill kit, deadfall triggers, etc). But even there, I've used a machete, and I've also used the top off of a tin can, and a broken stone.

As the others have said, the knife I have on me, is the one I would use in a survival situation. But really, I would prefer to have a larger knife. Kukri preferably, but again, any knife can do.

 

[Templar]

Hi all,

Hmmmm... for me I would say a Bushcraft Blade... more to the point, just look at what the locals carry and you would see that they all seem to prefer a smaller blade, and since your blade is simply a tool for creating other tools no one really needs a foot long blade in the temperate north...

Just my two cents...

Karl

 

[charadeur]

Good thread. I agree with OzaawaaMigiziNini, My preference would be an hatchet and a 4 inch blade knife. However my 12 bowie will hack through a 2 inch tree in less than a minute and still skin a squirrel or clean a fish. So if a hatchet or axe is not in the cards then I would rather have my bowie.

 

[big_swede]

I must agree with Herr Forrestwalker here. But a thing most people oversee here is that you DON'T need to split fire food. Doing so is just wasting energy. Wood contains the same amount of energy, so if you wan't finer fire wood, gather it.

I love my leuku and it is my main user, I don't know if it's a survival or bushy blade. Still good though. On the other hand, lately I have more and more moved over to a traditional wooden handled mora, mainly because it's so much smaller and lighter. I haven't found an area of use were I missed the leuku.

 

[Toddy]

Now that's an incredibly valid point, the ethos is the ability to make use of what you have, regardless of whether that is tools or foraged materials, and to do so effectively.

I might split up one smallish log for kindling and to get at the drier insides but why go to the effort further if there is no axe ( or spare energy) to hand ?

Similarly why the heck should I want to be burdened carrying the tools that would allow me to constuct a log cabin ?

Survival means surviving in a situation until one can either get oneself to safety or be rescued from the situation by others.
Bushcraft is using the natural environment and it's resources to provide for oneself, and with a level of comfort and relaxation.

Neither is an exercise in housebuilding.

I refuse to carry a heavy pack, I prefer a small knife, but I have to admit I've been eyeing up the leuku set up simply because I find a billhook as much a useful tool as a small axe.
Can I ask those who use the leuku ? Does it replace the small axe and the folding saw in your pack ?

cheers,
Toddy

 

[big_swede]

Now that's an incredibly valid point, the ethos is the ability to make use of what you have, regardless of whether that is tools or foraged materials, and to do so effectively.

I might split up one smallish log for kindling and to get at the drier insides but why go to the effort further if there is no axe ( or spare energy) to hand ?

Similarly why the heck should I want to be burdened carrying the tools that would allow me to constuct a log cabin ?

Survival means surviving in a situation until one can either get oneself to safety or be rescued from the situation by others.
Bushcraft is using the natural environment and it's resources to provide for oneself, and with a level of comfort and relaxation.

Neither is an exercise in housebuilding.

I refuse to carry a heavy pack, I prefer a small knife, but I have to admit I've been eyeing up the leuku set up simply because I find a billhook as much a useful tool as a small axe.
Can I ask those who use the leuku ? Does it replace the small axe and the folding saw in your pack ?

cheers,
Toddy

I (obviuosly) use a leuku. It does not replace the folding saw or axe. But there is some overlap. It's all about how you do things. But there is no substitute for the logger axe if you want to fell large trees. Neither is there anything near a full size bow saw for cutting the felled tree up in lengths (bar a chainsaw). But for bushcraft and survival use a leuku can do things that these two tools can. But the axe and saw can do a lot of thing that the leuku can't. And at a lower energy cost in some cases. As has been said before.

An axe will always win over a knife at almost all survival tasks, but this thread was about knives. I will state (again) that it is perfectly possible so survive and be quite comfy in the northern forest with just a 4" blade. If you know what you're doing. And it doesn't have to cost more energy than to do it with a (insert acronym and number here). Bending and breaking between standing trees, burning off, choosing the right fire wood, all those things cost less energy than chopping, sawing and splitting. Collecting dead wood will always be easier than felling, sectioning and splitting.

 

[Martyn]

Depends on what the demands of the survival situation are?

A big Rambo knife is a better chopper - for everything else, it's a heavy, cumbersome, sharpened pry-bar. So if your survival situation requires that you need to do lots and lots of chopping stuff, then the Rambo knife wins.

If your survival situation doesnt demand you chop lots of stuff to bits, then the little knife wins, purely on the basis of energy conservation if nothing else.

So the question really is, can anyone think of a survival situation that might demand you chop lots of stuff up into bits? Aside from somebody pointing a gun at you and saying "chop lots of stuff up or I'll shoot ya" ...I cant think of much.

The big, thick balded, hollow-handled, saw-back survival knife that we all think of (the F1 is not what most people would describe as a typical survival knife), is all a bit Walter Mitty really isn't it?

Taking the question seriously (which I admit I find difficult), the best survival knife is always going to be the small, light, comfortable, easy to use, easy to carry, calorie-sparing, multi-purpose, utility knife. Lugging around a fat burning, sharpened land-anchor might be OK if a transit van figures in your survival situation, but if you dont need to deforest 20 acres to build a log penthouse, then it's a little redundant.

Seriously, why make such a deal out of chopping stuff? It's the last thing you'd be wasting your energy doing. You may need to drop one small pole, or split one small log for kindling, but a small knife and a baton will do quite nicely and for everything else, the little knife is just so much better.

 

[Chinkapin]

I'm sorry to have to say this but I find some of this thread more than a little offensive.

I live in the U.S. and contrary to what has been assumed above, I do not prefer large "survival" knives, because of that fact. In reality, I carry an EnZo "trapper," or a Frost "clipper," or a D.H. Russell (an original one) from Canada. I hunt, and I know lots of people that hunt. None, I repeat none, of them carry what could be described as a "survival" knife. I resent the oft repeated implication that the woods over here are filled with Rambo wannabes. This is just another useless stereotype that is easier to believe than to bother to find out the truth. In all my time in the woods (which is a great deal) only once have I encountered someone carrying a knife that was so large as to look silly, and impractical. And I might add that he was catching hell from his hunting companions over it. Once.


In a survival situation, if it was going to last more than three days, I would likely spend most, if not all, of my time looking for food. I wouldn't be doing much chopping. I have split my fair share of kindling for fire starting in the stove. I have never split kindling to start a fire in the woods. It's completely unnecessary. Dry wood can always be found. So, I don't need a big knife for that.


In all likelihood, food/water will be you number one priority. Of, course shelter may be, depending on the weather. You do not need a big knife for shelter building. In fact, I can build a leaf shelter without any knife at all. A big knife and in fact an axe would be good if you killed a moose for dinner, but lets face it, that's not really very likely is it? I'm working on the assumption that you do not have a gun. A big knife is counter productive to skinning and cleaning. I would rather skin a squirrel with an EnZo than with a kukri.


As you can see, contrary to the mythology, just because I'm an American, I'm not necessarily "into" big knives, but having said that; I'm really put off by all the constant, repetitive, associations of larger knives with "zombie killing," and its attendant implication that this is some American fetish. If you have a nine inch Scandinavian knife you are a woodsman. If you have a nine inch CRKT, you are a zombie killing yank. I guess its the birch handle.


I personally don't want a knife any larger than the ones named above. Nevertheless, preferring one that is larger shouldn't make someone's choice the object of derision, and by implication them also.


The original question was simple enough, what kind of knife do you prefer, in a given hypothetical situation. There was nothing wrong with the question. It was an honest question, seeking an opinion.


It is a shame that people couldn't just answer (if they wanted to ) and let it go at that. Seems like lately, every time there is an interesting thread, it disintegrates with people ending up pontificating on their choices and then egos getting bruised.

Lastly, it might be a good idea to leave our cultural biases, insofar as that is possible, somewhere just short of the keyboard. Thank you for hearing me out.

 

[sandbender]

"...cultural biases..."

Whereas the US did give us the Tom Brown Tracker and the James Lile Sly II, they also gave us the Nessmuk and Kephart knives, so yes I think that some folks are being a little unfair to our North American neighbors.

"...but if you dont need to deforest 20 acres to build a log penthouse, then it's a little redundant. ..."

These are (allegedly) all of the tools used by Dick Proenneke when he built his cabin.