Survival, no kit

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Retired Member southey

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jun 4, 2006
11,098
13
your house!
even easier John! I would mine for and refine all the relevant materials to construct a Sat phone and call for a dominoes, when it arrived late I would eat it and the delivery boy and RIDE TO VICTORY! upon my scooter of many gears, RRRRRIIIIINGDINGDINGDING! AWAY!
 
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Joonsy

Native
Jul 24, 2008
1,483
3
UK
i don't know what sort of replies you expected but you have now got 100 of them and 1,834 views, not bad for a pretty pointless thread.
 

CACTUS ELF

Need to contact Admin...
Feb 16, 2012
108
0
Cheshire
i don't know what sort of replies you expected but you have now got 100 of them and 1,834 views, not bad for a pretty pointless thread.

yep, fair play. i didnt realise how much fuss it would cause. survival/bushcraft in the same thred- pathetic open ended- End of the world- bourne movies - fantasy- pointless but some good post too. all this on someones first thread. Wow i thank you all for your time and look forward to reading more.

Sorry to thoses who thought i was a warmonger looking for a headline etc or trying to cause a fuss, really not my intention. i have since read other threads of similar substance that all seem to end up down the same road.

There is in my opinion little difference in the fundamentals of bushcraft and survival and i think the two go hand in hand even if the final objectives differ.

Maybe there will always be the far left and right on this matter and never the twain shell meet as in so many aspects of life.

Good will and peace to all :)
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
38,966
4,616
S. Lanarkshire
I disagree; politely, gently, but I disagree.
I don't do hard core survival....that's the get out asap stuff, I do do the chill out asap stuff though. I forage, I gather, I make, and I use the resources of the natural world around me to do so. It's a great enricher of both my life and what time I spend outdoors. That's bushcraft.
I don't do the, "I'm going to die if I don't get myself out of this situation!", scenarios. That's Survival. (Note the capital S; survival is just living)

Survival is a huge topic in it's own right, but most bushcrafters think of it as a sub set of Bushcraft.......we'd only use our knowledge to Survive once in a blue moon, while we use Bushcraft skills all the time.
Hard core Survivalists disagree, they consider Bushcraft to be a subset of 'their' skills; we know they're mistaken, but they can get terribly offended at our chill out attitude. :rolleyes: We're more inclined to the idea that you should know enough not to get into that Survival situation if you possibly can avoid it.

At least you took all the flak in good part; you didn't throw the dummy and you still wished us well :)

Go on, pull up a log and join the other conversations around this virtual campfire :)

cheers,
Toddy
 

Fat Rog

Forager
Sep 30, 2012
105
0
Rotherham, S. Yorks
Survival is a huge topic in it's own right, but most bushcrafters think of it as a sub set of Bushcraft.......we'd only use our knowledge to Survive once in a blue moon, while we use Bushcraft skills all the time.
Hard core Survivalists disagree, they consider Bushcraft to be a subset of 'their' skills; we know they're mistaken, but they can get terribly offended at our chill out attitude. :rolleyes: We're more inclined to the idea that you should know enough not to get into that Survival situation if you possibly can avoid it.

Pretty much. We do it to get away from it all. They do it to get back to it all ASAP.
 

joe o

Member
Feb 14, 2011
29
0
Wiltshire
Hi Cactus Elf,

Just clicked on a thread I had stored in my favourites and saw this one, which I've now trawled through with interest. As a bushcraft instructor I often find myself talking about this mythical 'survival situation' that, quite frankly none of us are ever likely to experience. Reading between the lines I think that you're someone who likes to cover all eventualities - like most people on here I'm sure. Always asking 'what if...?' makes perfectly good sense to me and in my opinion, wanting to learn a skill (or bunch of skills) thoroughly means tracing it back to it's bare bones. In most cases this leads us back to the aforementioned mythical survival situation where a lack of the obvious advantages of specialist gear requires you to have truly mastered the skill. I think that's where the motivation lies in stripping a technique back - challenging yourself to be able to achieve a certain task just as well without the correct kit, be it in practice or just asking yourself those questions (or others) theoretically. Nothing wrong with that at all, just shows a need to get to the nitty gritty of the technique and an interest in it's origins. Additionally, with many bushcraft techniques being re-kindled from a by-gone era we find ourselves comparing our achievments with the original practitioners of the skill. To keep pushing forward, striving for betterment we aim to move closer and closer to their standard which often means having to explore their available options regarding traditional tools, natural resources and such like. However, we modern types are at a disadvantage in some ways. Many of us have pathetically poor practical skill levels compared to the original practitioners of bushcraft/wilderness living hence the need to try and reclaim even just the tiniest amount of those ancient admirable qualities for our own self respect. In other ways we do have advantages - greater access to information being one. Even so, to set a bench mark of attempting to match the achievments of craftsmen and women from a time when we were completely reliant on raw and unrefined nature for everything, is a tall order. Testing ourselves with such 'survival scenarios' such as the one you describe is also a tall order, but doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask the question or even give it a go (with the correct training and a proper understanding of the risks). To take it literally as some on here have done and 'poo poo' the whole idea I suppose could mean that they're happy with their level of knowledge already and don't feel the need to push it onto the next level? Of course most of us are only a few hours walk from safety here in the UK but that's not really the point. You can learn the all skills you need to get through an unplanned overnight stop out or emergency situation in the mountains over a weekend with a good instructor. The question you're asking goes way beyond that.


By way of a more direct answer to your question, I have a very good example to give. Myself and a handful of others (all highly skilled folk) set ourselves a similar goal a few weeks back. Seven days in the woods with minimal kit. The original plan was to use only flint tools, no metal at all but we swapped that idea for a small knife and folding saw each...the sting in the tail being that we would be alone for the duration rather than working as a group. Other items taken were a metal billycan, cloth water filter bag, 2 metres of parachute cord and a few safety items such as a headtorch, first aid kit and emergency comms to other group members. Last issued item was a modest quantity of venison - the theory being that we all had the skills, knowledge and experience to trap and hunt wild game but the law wouldn't allow us to use home made improvised weapons. Instead the meat was to be viewed as a 'loan' which would be repaid by each member making a primitive projectile after the essentials had been taken care of. This would have to be capable of hitting the kill zone on a target within stalking range of the environment we were living in (mixed broadleaf and coniferous woodland). All improvised weapons were tested and all passed the test. The only other self imposed rule was that we would wear no goretex or synthetic/down filled clothing, only natural fibres such as wool and cotton. So, getting closer to your scenario but still not quite there.


Despite carrying these relative 'luxuries' we still needed to provide shelter and make a comfortable bed (we would be living in these for a week). Fire would need to be made by each and every individual before water could be sterilized and drunk or any of the venison could be cooked and eaten. With no sleeping bags this would also be essential for warmth at night. The venison would need to be jerkied up and preserved by a combination of drying and smoking or it would spoil. All these priority tasks had to be completed on day one. To stray over into day two would have made a difficult set of tasks even harder through lack of sleep, onset of dehydration and hunger. The following morning and for the rest of the week we had to forage all additional food from the surrounding environment (the quantity of venison provided protein but no real useable energy - it was also only probably enough meat to feed five people for one sunday dinner back in the real world). I relied on roots, rhizomes and fruits for my energy foods.

Remember, our overall aim wasn't to just survive but to live relatively comfortably with very little. After an initial flurry of survival based activity to tick all the priority boxes, we did exactly that. I lost a bit of weight but felt amazing for it. Light on my feet and full of energy actually! We all slept well (I've got a toddler so waking every few hours to build the fire back up before drifting back off to sleep was a breeze..) and even had time to indulge ourselves with various crafts in addition to making our primitive weapons. Clay bowls, bramble baskets and carved utensils were all created by the end of the week.

One thing to remember though...we may not have had much, and we were almost completely reliant on our surrounding natural resources to provide the essentials for life but we did have basic tools. We also had a full day to provide all of those essentials, were all in perfect health, we had an obvious (although small and murky) source of water nearby and we were living from the land at the most fruitful time of the year. Most importantly, we had worked up to this, some of us for years/decades and had plenty of practice in testing situations to draw on. Speaking for myself only and without a hint of machoism or big headed-ness, I found the week extremely enjoyable and relatively easy but with any of the above factors lacking, it might've been a different story.

So, how would I have fared without the metal tools, parachute cord and metal pot? I know I have the skills to improvise a solution for all of those but the week would've been very different. My honest opinion is that in the scenario you have described, my first job would be to find some kind of existing shelter from the weather, even if it were just getting on the non-windy side of a raised bank or crawling under a holly tree. My second task (or first if the weather was fine) would be to get that fire lit. The fire would keep me warm, boil my water, give me light at night, dry my clothing and so much more. Without any tools at all other than what nature provides I would honestly expect this to take all day, anything less would be a bonus. That's assuming I have all day, that I'm fully fit and have the knowledge and skill level to achieve fire in that situation. This is also still working within the realms of the aforementioned fictitious scenario - ie, you need to live wild indefinitely with no guaranteed chance of rescue. Achieving fire and finding a makeshift shelter would get me through the night and leave me able to continue improving my situation the following morning.

Reality check time though...as soon as you start comparing this to a situation someone might actually find themselves in whilst out in the mountains and forests of the UK or similar, everything changes. Reality dictates that you'd have less time to prepare for the coming night (who realises they're going to be trapped out for the night at 9am?...) and your priorities (assuming you're safe from immediate danger and not having to deal with life threatening medical emergencies) will be just to get through the night while also attempting to attract rescuers to your location. Providing shelter from the elements and minimizing heat loss are where I would spend my energy. Chances are that although cold and uncomfortable, you'll see the morning and be found the next day. No real need to worry about sterilizing water with heated rocks, making primitive weaponry or processing berries into fruit leather.


So hope that all helps and I hope you can make sense of it all.


By the way, I have drunk water distilled from wee ...but not actual wee.


Cheers

Joe O'Leary
 
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CACTUS ELF

Need to contact Admin...
Feb 16, 2012
108
0
Cheshire
well joe, i have to say thats awesome. :) really awesome :) thankyou for a great response. I also know from pm's that it's not just me your post will help. Thanks again :)
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,128
2,869
66
Pembrokeshire
By the way, I have drunk water distilled from wee ...but not actual wee.
Aye - but it is not the same realy is it ... distilled water lacks body!
That was a great trip by the sound of it :) and as the reply to the OP it seems a very fiull answer indeed!
I have done the "weekend with nowt but a pot and a knife and the clothing on your back" kind of trip in the past and it was a cold, hungry time .. but very do-able in a "what-if fantasy" kind of way.
Your trip sounds more enjoyable - it makes your courses look very interesting :)
Keep up the good work!
 

Wook

Settler
Jun 24, 2012
688
4
Angus, Scotland
I wonder if any Search and Rescue teams have ever found a person who has been missing for say, 12 hours, and they've been happily glugging their own wee, smearing mud on their faces and trying to build a kiln from their own poo.......

I think some folk would be just so darn excited that they were in a genuine emergency that they wouldn't be able to hold their inner Bear Grylls in.
 

spandit

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 6, 2011
5,594
308
East Sussex, UK
You hear of cases where ordinary, unprepared people have been found after surviving for a while with nothing and also tales of finding dead survival enthusiasts. I'd guess there's a lot of luck involved
 

joe o

Member
Feb 14, 2011
29
0
Wiltshire
No worries about the loooong reply - it's a question I've asked myself plenty of times. There comes a point where you have to analyze why you want to find the answer...

Thanks for the link by the way (I look younger in that pic, might need to change it or I'll get done by trading standards)

I've always left wee drinking to the airborne lads John - they seem to be quite good at it. I'm with you on the cold and hungry weekends of yesteryear, done quite a few myself. I think the difference now is in knowing that I'll be in that self imposed situation for a week. The extra incentive of wanting to create a comfortable existence for that extended period definitely influences my initial survival strategy. My energy is invested in other areas to ensure I allow for lower energy levels later on. Having a good idea of how you'll perform when cold, tired, hungry, thirsty etc is handy knowledge as you have a good idea of how far you can push yourself to improve your situation before you make the decision to stop and make the best of what you've got.

Ref the cases of dead survival enthusiasts - very true that you can get bogged down with info and confused as to the best strategy. You can't beat practice! With practice you can eliminate the stuff that doesn't work for you and collect up a core of good, honest skills which are universal and can be perfected fairly quick. I found the same with Judo, find a handful of techniques that work for you and perfect them. Other tips and tricks reveal themselves to you over time.

A kiln made of poo? Might give that a go over the winter...

Joe
 

udamiano

On a new journey
Yeah, but you try and post all the info you know about getting water from a wild river even in a specified area and making it healthy to drink into one post and you'll see how deep you have to get. And that is only a tiny aspect of answering the original post. It turns out that explaining it isn't so basic. It requires a shed load of typing even to explain how to get that water safe, let alone about finding it. Add to that all the other important areas and you'll be typing that one post way into the latter half of 2013 ;)


Very much a similar answer to what I would have posted :approve:

Basically you would need to address the main issues, all of which as JD has said would require pages to explain, but would be easier to demonstrate in situ.

These (again as pointed out) are in no particular order

Water.
Shelter.
Food.
Warm (lets call it fire)

The location is important as this defines the environment and the resources you have to make use of and their abundance. terrain also plays a big part, as to how, what you need to navigate through, or your chances of being seen and rescued.

While a knife of some sorts would indeed be a life saver to have already does the terrain support resources to provide the means to make basic tools from stones, and such.

Fire from fiction while possible, in forest conditions the basic humidity, and lack of really, really dry wood would cause big problems on your tinder and such. So any other method initially would be better served, until you can get that which you need.

As you see without specific details on location, types of terrain, time of year, general climate, etc. the OP question is indeed very difficult to answer, in anything less than book size.

Da
 

oldtimer

Full Member
Sep 27, 2005
3,200
1,824
82
Oxfordshire and Pyrenees-Orientales, France
I think I owe CactusElf an apology and a thank you. I dismissed his OP as a wind-up and a silly question. However, his post has resulted in one of the most interesting and thought provoking thread for a long time.

The discussion and contributions have enabled me to clarify my own thinking about survival, with and without Toddy's capital, bushcraft and camping. I do not propose to set out my own position- each will have their own- but it has changed, as has my self-awareness. Among the things I have learned:

1 Don't rush to judgement too quickly. Good results can come from unlikely sources and all answers have to be preceded by questions.
2 Survival, survival and bushcraft are all rooted in a commendable desire for self-reliance. But becoming self-reliant cannot be achieved by one's self.
3 Knowledge and wisdom are not the same. eg That a tomato is a fruit is Knowledge, not putting it in a fruit salad is Wisdom. Similarly, knowing how to make fire with a bow and drill is a good thing but not as wise as always have at least a firestick, matches and a lighter in the pocket at all times.
4 Not a new thought, but a further example of the wide range of knowledge, wisdom and experience that forum members and contributors have and that we have access to at a mouse-click.

So, sorry for being initially dismissive of you, Cactus Elf and thanks for the discussion you generated.
 
Interesting post. Lots of information and humour. I worked with a Cree elder and we brought some gang youth out into the woods for a couple of days. After complaining for two days straight, one of the boys asked the elder if he even used his traditional skills anymore. He told them the year before he was driving across the prairies here in -30c, blizzard conditions when his car got bogged down in then snow. He was wearing jeans, jean jacket and basic shirt, and of course, cowboy boots. He left his car, went to the roadside and gathered wood from the base of big trees where it is often dry, made a big fire with one of his two matches. He threw in a bunch of rooks, which he put in a trench when they were hot, buried it with dirt, then boughs. He slept on that with more boughs on him, and said he was very warm all night. Several other people in the area died in that same blizzard.

The boys were suitably impressed, but he just smiled and told them that it was pretty unlikely that would happen to them, but the skills and self-confidence they learned by looking after themselves while camping would be useful every day.
 

bigant

Tenderfoot
Aug 30, 2009
83
0
39
Stoke on trent
this topic reminds me of a scenario we were given in training once while doing our ET course ill stick the brief up here.

The scenario is.
yourself and three other civilians have been shipwrecked somewhere along the east Scottish coast. Two of your companions are injured - one with a broken leg, the other with possible broken ribs. Nothing of any note has been saved from the shipwreck. Its late autumn and the weather is atrocious - almost continual rain, often gale-fore winds. the area your in is totally deserted mostly forested with pine been the most visible species.
There are signs that an attempt has been made recently to develop the area for forestry, but those workers are long gone. You can see a slightly overgrown single track road that leads inland - but you can see that it passes over the mountains that stand between your group and the nearest settlement some forty or fifty miles away.
You have one set of oil skins between the four of you - and even if you had wanted to follow the track inland early snows on the mountains has made you think twice.
The most sensible course seems to be to wait where you are until you can attract the attention of a passing ship. but as few ships sail in these waters, and you wont be reported missing for at least another 10 days, you have to be prepared for a long wait.

What happens next?

Copy pasted from the paperwork i was sent :) gota love the military fondness for giving such things added difficulty levels. there is a answer that goes with it if people are interested lol. could be interesting see what people come up with first though :)
 

Laurentius

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 13, 2009
2,426
619
Knowhere
this topic reminds me of a scenario we were given in training once while doing our ET course ill stick the brief up here.

The scenario is.
yourself and three other civilians have been shipwrecked somewhere along the east Scottish coast. :)

East Scottish coast? Is someone having a larf, there is an A road that runs practically all the way round it. Drag yourselves to the nearest bus stop and hope you have the fare.
 

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