Make a shed from wood in woodland or buy cheap wooden one?

[bushcraftlearner83729]

You have options, but you're kind of confusing us a bit because at first you want it to be moved if necessary, then you suggest stuff that's really substantial....and expensive either in materials or £££ or enormous labour.

Well it changed as I learned more but also because people would say this or that would not be possible with what I had.

Ideally I would make out of what I have already.

I am not that keen on a tarp skinned shelter other than to work in. Doesn't seem to cosy to me.

I like the idea of a mud hut due to abundance.

Maybe wood and mud combo?

Also mine is south facing though of course boggy nonetheless as I have stated. It is not totally boggy throughout though. There are patches with lots of rushes, probably the majoriy being somewhat waterlogged, but in one corner, where the little woodland is, and generally the western side, it seems pretty dry...ish. Not boggy to walk on anyway, unlike other parts.

Oh btw something that I have not figured out is on the wet parts where water pools there is some rainbow coloured water like bits of petrol in it. What could that be? Very much doubt it is actual petrol as above is just an empty sheep field and beyond that is the top of the valley and just woodland.

 

[GreyCat]

Well it changed as I learned more but also because people would say this or that would not be possible with what I had.

Ideally I would make out of what I have already.

I am not that keen on a tarp skinned shelter other than to work in. Doesn't seem to cosy to me.

I like the idea of a mud hut due to abundance.

Maybe wood and mud combo?

Also mine is south facing though of course boggy nonetheless as I have stated. It is not totally boggy throughout though. There are patches with lots of rushes, probably the majoriy being somewhat waterlogged, but in one corner, where the little woodland is, and generally the western side, it seems pretty dry...ish. Not boggy to walk on anyway, unlike other parts.

Oh btw something that I have not figured out is on the wet parts where water pools there is some rainbow coloured water like bits of petrol in it. What could that be? Very much doubt it is actual petrol as above is just an empty sheep field and beyond that is the top of the valley and just woodland.

It's natural.

A lot of groundwater in SW Wales is naturally high in iron. It attracts bacteria who get their energy from oxidizing the iron from Fe II to Fe III and that's where the film is from. It's a natural thing. Get it in the place we bought, that's why I looked into it. Bog iron" was a major source of iron in the early iron age and even I think in Scandinavia in Viking times.

Here's a proper explanation: https://www.inaturalist.org/posts/75923-what-is-this-oily-film-and-rusty-slimy-stuff-in-swampy-areas

And another pic: https://www.naturepl.com/stock-phot...ptothrix-discophora-nature-image01709738.html

GC

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Yeah.....that always sounds a good idea....if you live somewhere dry.
Otherwise you're just digging out a sump....and it will fill with water and it will sit damp and cold.

Site, always the site. That's crucial.

In the past our ancestors would look for a south facing slope, and then they'd dig into it. They'd create a platform, usually oval, that used the back of the hill as one side, but the front they faced up with whatever was available.....and faced south so that it always got the best of the warmth and light.
I too was an archaeologist (lot of us on here ) and I have fieldwalked a heck of a lot of hillsides and found an awful lot of old round house platforms

Again though, it's site dependant. Don't try it on a sodden wet hill 'cos you'lll just end up with a burn running through your house when it rains, sort of thing.

Turf houses are again traditional, but they are a lot of work, but if all you have is soil, then that's what you use.

You have options, but you're kind of confusing us a bit because at first you want it to be moved if necessary, then you suggest stuff that's really substantial....and expensive either in materials or £££ or enormous labour.

Honestly, try a bender. Give it a go, see how you get on. They're pretty good floored with pallets, and if you use old ammo boxes or the like then you'll not have issues with rodents....that you have already primed to come look around your camp for free food....

Another thought that has come to mind.

If I just bang the main stakes into the mud how long should I expect them to last?

Do people usually put gravel around to slow rot?

Back to our neolithic friends. What would they have done? I guess they didn't have postcrete to use. Maybe used gravel smashed from rocks? What about those pile buildings built on water like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehi...dia/File:Pfahlbaumuseum_Unteruhldingen-07.jpg

They wouldn't have been able to dig into the sea bed would they? So did they just bash into the ground and it lasted as long as it lasted?

I don't have any gravel and don't want to buy any in really so how long could I expect those supports to last just driven into the mud? I don't mind if a couple of years and maybe debarking will offer a while longer? I can just build another and a good lesson in impermanence as per the buddhists.

 

[Toddy]

Look at charred timbers.

If you burn the ends then that does not rot so quickly.

It's being much used these days among the cabin builders on youtube apparently.

You can easily sink upright timbers (well, it's hard work, but it works really well, it's how they built crannogs) into a loch or river bed.
Tidal wear and tear does more damage than being embedded in mud to erode timber.

 

[Stew]

Another thought that has come to mind.

If I just bang the main stakes into the mud how long should I expect them to last?

Do people usually put gravel around to slow rot?

Back to our neolithic friends. What would they have done? I guess they didn't have postcrete to use. Maybe used gravel smashed from rocks? What about those pile buildings built on water like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehi...dia/File:Pfahlbaumuseum_Unteruhldingen-07.jpg

They wouldn't have been able to dig into the sea bed would they? So did they just bash into the ground and it lasted as long as it lasted?

I don't have any gravel and don't want to buy any in really so how long could I expect those supports to last just driven into the mud? I don't mind if a couple of years and maybe debarking will offer a while longer? I can just build another and a good lesson in impermanence as per the buddhists.

It should last a couple of years, if not longer - assuming a decent sized post that has been de- barked.

Oak is pretty rot resistant, as are some other woods with high tannin content. Do you have sweet chestnut?

The biggest issue is at ground level and a few inches either side more than under ground or higher up. That constant wet/dry/damp/wet/dry speeds up the rot. I have a load of knee rails at work that are just all hitting end of life at once - rotten through at that point, still solid under ground.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Look at charred timbers.

If you burn the ends then that does not rot so quickly.

It's being much used these days among the cabin builders on youtube apparently.

You can easily sink upright timbers (well, it's hard work, but it works really well, it's how they built crannogs) into a loch or river bed.
Tidal wear and tear does more damage than being embedded in mud to erode timber.

Ah I have seen a video of that. One of those hd asmr jobbies that are so popular where the guy was chucking the logs on hot coals. I was wondering what he did that for and didn't care to look at the time but I guess that explains it.

So, asking you as an archeologist, what would the neolithic man had done? As I mentioned before I like to see what current day options are but also what they would have done as a history lesson.

Would they have just rammed into the ground as is?

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

It should last a couple of years, if not longer - assuming a decent sized post that has been de- barked.

Oak is pretty rot resistant, as are some other woods with high tannin content. Do you have sweet chestnut?

The biggest issue is at ground level and a few inches either side more than under ground or higher up. That constant wet/dry/damp/wet/dry speeds up the rot. I have a load of knee rails at work that are just all hitting end of life at once - rotten through at that point, still solid under ground.

Ok, long enough to source more to replace should the occasion arise then! I think I will just debark them and fling them in in that case.

I had been thinking I am not sure how I will be able to drive them in as I don't have a ladder to get above to bang them. I will just make a holes I guess and fill around them.

It keeps getting asked, regarding tree types, but I keep having to say I don't know. Although you can keep making suggestions and I can keep looking them up and maybe one day I will be able to say yes that looks like them. I just looked at sweet chesnut but look nothing like these ones but since mine are small probably look nothing like mature ones in most pictures.

All I can say is they have the wavy lobed oval leaves like oak which are all over the ground right now but otherwise they look like nearly every other small tree to my untrained eye.

 

[Tengu]

On Crannogs, the stakes were banged (as you say) into clay.

Good anerobic preservation conditions.

At the Crannog centre we have the stakes still, can see all the axe marks.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

On Crannogs, the stakes were banged (as you say) into clay.

Good anerobic preservation conditions.

At the Crannog centre we have the stakes still, can see all the axe marks.

Clay again! That which I lack. Though might be able to get enough for a few stake's worth rather than tonnes as suggested for walls.

Ready to get building now though so gonna just get on with it without!

 

[Toddy]

Ah I have seen a video of that. One of those hd asmr jobbies that are so popular where the guy was chucking the logs on hot coals. I was wondering what he did that for and didn't care to look at the time but I guess that explains it.

So, asking you as an archeologist, what would the neolithic man had done? As I mentioned before I like to see what current day options are but also what they would have done as a history lesson.

Would they have just rammed into the ground as is?

It depends on too many things to say just one is the 'way'.

Site, materials, people, intention, timing, culture......

Untreated timbers were .....this is hard to explain without demonstrating....but you can wriggle timbers into soft-ish ground until they will suddenly grip and bind. Put a stick across a log and lash it in place. Use that cross spar to 'work' the timber down into the ground......no hole digging necessary.
It's simpler for smaller stuff to point the end and then batter the stick into the ground though. Depends on scale too.

Putting timber on top of stone has long provenance and it's sound practice (cruck framed buildings).....we know of all of these, and more techniques of what you called neolithic......we also know of curved arcs of small post holes.
Those are the only remains of the small timbers that would have created their equivalent of our benders.

In the far north of Europe there are still mammoth bone structures, presumably skin covered originally.

There's no one way.



Scorched timbers last better in damp than those with bark left on....mind the bark provides food and habitat for insect infestation and rot.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

It depends on too many things to say just one is the 'way'.

Site, materials, people, intention, timing, culture......

Untreated timbers were .....this is hard to explain without demonstrating....but you can wriggle timbers into soft-ish ground until they will suddenly grip and bind. Put a stick across a log and lash it in place. Use that cross spar to 'work' the timber down into the ground......no hole digging necessary.
It's simpler for smaller stuff to point the end and then batter the stick into the ground though. Depends on scale too.

Putting timber on top of stone has long provenance and it's sound practice (cruck framed buildings).....we know of all of these, and more techniques of what you called neolithic......we also know of curved arcs of small post holes.
Those are the only remains of the small timbers that would have created their equivalent of our benders.

In the far north of Europe there are still mammoth bone structures, presumably skin covered originally.

There's no one way.



Scorched timbers last better in damp than those with bark left on....mind the bark provides food and habitat for insect infestation and rot.

Wasn't implying there was one way. I know there were myriad, just wanted to know if it was done in some cases untreated and bashed so I can feel more satisfied they did ok like that if I do!

Yes I can picture what you mean with the lashed stick round a log. Think I watched it in a video in the past.

 

[Tengu]

The traditional Japanese house was a wood frame resting on a stone at each corner. The rest of it was whatever was to hand.

 

[British Red]

Wasn't implying there was one way. I know there were myriad, just wanted to know if it was done in some cases untreated and bashed so I can feel more satisfied they did ok like that if I do!

Yes I can picture what you mean with the lashed stick round a log. Think I watched it in a video in the past.

You are getting to a point of "analysis paralysis".

At some point, get out there and build something.

It will be awful.

Learn.

Build something better.

It will be awful in different ways.

Build something better.

Asking questions is fine as a lead in to actually building things, but you can't get it right first time.

It's time

Make something.

 

[GreyCat]

Clay again! That which I lack. Though might be able to get enough for a few stake's worth rather than tonnes as suggested for walls.

Ready to get building now though so gonna just get on with it without!

Given where you are and what you have described, I reckon you'll have clay..... most of the hillside I expect

as @British Red says: just get out and have a go, as I said upthread so don't the perfection be the enemy of the good. A d you don't get good without practice.....

GC

 

[Tengu]

Yes. you need to get moving.

Even if its just listing your resources.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

You are getting to a point of "analysis paralysis".

At some point, get out there and build something.

It will be awful.

Learn.

Build something better.

It will be awful in different ways.

Build something better.

Asking questions is fine as a lead in to actually building things, but you can't get it right first time.

It's time

Make something.

Why do people think I am just sitting at home doing nothing?

I said from the last couple of replies I am back out here and have been chopping stuff down and asking advice following such action.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Ok so rather big change in objective, but based on 'getting to know the land' as @Toddy had recommended.

I had been clearing a big part of brambles as I thought I would site it there. I then started thinking to myself about these two big piles of brash and all the droppings in the area. I suddenly put two and two together and realized there are probably loads of rodents living in that rotting biomass eh?

As such I would not want to site anywhere I may possibly want to sleep right next to them. The bramble clearance is right in between the two of them!

@Dave Budd How did you deal with that and how do campers generally? Do you just learn to not care about the odd rodent crawling by you and possibly over your face while you sleep? Living in my van for some time I have certainly gotten used to some sleeping situations I would not have envisioned before but possible rodents crawling over me I have a hard time envisioning right now.

I had originally thought I could use those piles to make dead hedging but now with this new thought in mind I would be afraid of what I might find once I got down into those piles! Should I just leave them to keep rotting and leave be whatever lives there? I am thinking to do that and rather site whatever I build somewhere else.

Also, having thought about that, the placement was less than ideal anyway, for sunlight purposes, being further down in the valley. Better to put up the hill a bit facing south/south west.

Another thing that occurred to me with all the thoughts of rodents is I would not feel happy sleeping in something open to the elements where rodents can come be crawling on my face. Never been a big camper! I like the safety of my metal skinned van!

As such I would want something sealed off.

This got me thinking of design and I thought that it is a waste of resources trying to combine both a workshop and a self shelter into one. When keeping ones' self warm through labour I am fine working out in the elements except for the most extreme conditions and a quick thrown up tarp would do for that.

On the other hand, as above, anything I would potentially sleep in I want to have a proper barrier between inside and outside. If only considering my own body size, with a bit to move around, I can then make it much smaller and give me more chance to make from wood to probably cover most of the walls with just the gaps between irregularities between rods.

I could then fill those with clay right and probably have enough to cover those gaps?

Rather than 10ft x 10ft as previously estimated I could make it much smaller, based on general size I have gotten used to in my van, of about 6ft x 4ft x 5ft, l, w, h. Bit higher perhaps to stand in but I know those general figures have worked for me already.

Also I don't plan to sleep there regularly. My van would still be my number one. I just feel I would have more security if I have a cabin I could use if the van breaks down or requires fixing or something like that.

I could buy a shed to fulfill the above but if I can make one to fit the criteria I think it would be an empowering thing to know I could make a similar one just about anywhere with a bit of wood and a couple of days time.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Given where you are and what you have described, I reckon you'll have clay..... most of the hillside I expect

as @British Red says: just get out and have a go, as I said upthread so don't the perfection be the enemy of the good. A d you don't get good without practice.....

GC

Yes when I made a hole to put one of the posts in yesterday as soon as I got down over about 1ft then I was in to clay.

 

[Stew]

Just to give you a sense of how tight you would need the gaps - if you can get a pencil in there, a mouse can get through it.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Just to give you a sense of how tight you would need the gaps - if you can get a pencil in there, a mouse can get through it.

I am well aware of that little tidbit.

I had them crawling all over my van the other week however they seem to have calmed down now fingers crossed.

I am guessing they either died off in the cold spell we had or have found some places to nest in the meantime while I was away. Someone said it was just the time of the year where they were looking to nest as things got colder so maybe they have settled somewhere else by now.

I can see there is still plenty of action down by the woods looking at all the droppings and nibbling.

It was mad before. As soon as the sun went down I would hear them scrabbling about shortly after on the wheel arches, back bumper and could even hear them get on the roof.

So I had bought some aluminum gauze for the big hole I have in the floor! That hole is for ventilation but has a computer fan in it. There was already a rodent grate but when I found out about the pencil thing it made me aware that those holes are far larger than that. The gauze is in the millimeters.

For the new structure, if I make it as small as I can comfortably get away with, it will be less filling to do. I can use the grass as well though can't I and make like a plaster of grass and clay.

No one has yet confirmed, can I just use fresh grass in place of hay? I don't see why not as it will just dry in place won't it?

Looking up log cabin on wiki I see it is called 'chinking', using rocks and various other flotsam and the familiar daubing. Daubing should form a seal shouldn't it from what I have seen on pictures.

Here is a nice random picture which looks like the type of scale I will be looking at: