Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

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Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
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chewie said:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

It does not come down to 'luck' if you carry a s139CJA88-compliant pocket knife or tool. Discretion [or 'luck' if you prefer] is only an issue if you commit an offence in the first place.

Absolutely. There is law and there are crimes and criminals, but if you are legal, you are legal. It's not grey, it's black and white.

There are very few knives that are classified as weapons per se. If you are not carrying the knife as a weapon and dont either intend to use, or use it as one, then it is not a weapon - it's just a tool with a sharp edge.

If you are a member of a re-enactment society, and have a 3 foot sword in your hand during a mock battle, it is not a weapon either per se or otherwise - because you do not intend to do harm to another - you are legitimately and peacably "mocking" battle - there is NO CRIME. There is no court in the land that will convict you for posession of an offensive weapon under those circumstances.
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
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chewie said:
I'm not familiar with the ways and means act and have never heard of it ... but if I were to be, I would understand that all its provisions specifically apply only to known recidivist criminals. Registered nurses are exempt. :eek:

Hmmmm. :rolleyes: ;)

Yeah I know, I'm lucky. I made some good choices when I was young and kept my nose clean. I know my profession, my nature and my complete absence of any criminal record pretty much assures me of keeping my liberty, I'm at an advantage when it comes to carrying a pocket knife. I'm at one end of a spectrum, with the recidivist criminal at the other.

The law should be black and white, but life for most people isnt that polarised. Probably half my friends were not so smart when they were kids. They wouldnt be allowed to do what I do because of mistakes they made. But they have grown into mature, responsible, law abiding, intelligent family adults, who just happen to not be so blessed. I would think that probably accounts for a big chunk of society. The law is the law, if they commit a crime, they should be made to account, but if they do not commit a crime, they should not be any more at risk than I am, regardless of their profession or long since past acts of stupidity.

So, there's an old bull and a young bull on top of a hill, looking down on a field of cows....

It's not lost on me. ;)
 

sploing

New Member
Oct 3, 2006
62
0
Manchester
This will be my last piece of input oin this topic for a while as I'm off to Wales for the weekend shortly.

'Ways and means' is just a term I use for common sense, whilst s.139 CJA gives you the right to carry a knife, without reason; which complies with the criteria laid down by that act it also gives that right to less scrupulous characters. What I meant in my previous post was that if I were to find such a knife on say a prolific street robber s.139 CJA gives me no power to take that knife or arrest the person carrying it, however, given the high possibility that the article would be used in a street robbery where someone might be injured, I would not be happy leaving that knife in the persons possession. The Prevention of Crime Act S.1 does however give me some power to deal with that individual if I believe the knife, however compliant with s.139 CJA, is likely to be used to cause harm, and that includes threatening people with it but not using it as various cases have outlined that mental distress can be considered a form of harm. The danger lies in believing that just because the knife complies with CJA it is no longer capable of being used for anything illegal and the scar on my left shoulder bears testament to that.

I'm all for the sensible use of knives, they're are an invaluable tool, especially in bushcraft, but I do think it sad that laws designed to stop people from carrying and using knives for the wrong reasons have infringed on the rights of the overwhelming majority who use knives sensibly.

Unfortunately 'just' and 'lawful' don't always fit together nicely
 

TheGreenMan

New Member
Feb 17, 2006
1,000
8
beyond the pale
Jackdaw said:
The real check point here is whether they have justifiable grounds for searching you. I have just recently left the police and can tell you that they are not allowed to just stop and search you without justifiable grounds.

What this justifiable grounds could be is a matter of conjecture. But under Sect 1 of PACE you can only be searched if they actually believe that they will find whatever they are looking for on your person. This means that they must have had some intelligence to presume you will have a knife on you.

If you are arrested you will be searched no matter what the offence. This may lead them to include a further arrest of carry a conceled weapon or some other offence. The best thing to do is when asked, always tell them what you have on you. If they find it after asking you, you will more than likely be in bother. I would be most upset to have been lawfully searching someone and finding a knife after asking if you had anything like that on you.

You don't need a reason to carry a folding bladed knife that is 3 inches or less. You may be arrested if you are using it in an unlawful manner. For a blade over 3 inches, locking, full tang or otherwise, you will need a reasonable justification for carrying it. Peeling apples isn't reasonable unless you have a medical condition that prevents you from eating apple skin.

Most cases would need to go to a court of law for definition of what is reasonable justification. I carry a full tang blade longer than 3 inches, but it is always kept in a bergan, not easily accessible and I only carry it if I am out in the field. For most purposes, my Swiss Army Knife is suitable.

The law is there to protect the general public not punish the minority. It will inevitably lead to the conviction of normally law abiding people who have come up against these laws, but as some individuals insist on carrying knives and stabbing each other with them, we can expect a backlash on the rest of us.

One last thing......NEVER, EVER carry something that looks like it is for fighting as you will invaribly have it confiscated and may lead to prosecution. A lot of "Combat" knifes are now being peddled as "Hunting" knifes to get round recent legislation. Avoid these because if you are only using it to whittle a spoon, it can be argued that you could have done it with a Swiss Army Knife and that you didn't need that Rambo, 12" Saw-Topped, Full-Tang Gucci Model that you were using!

Hello Jackdaw,

Many thanks for the useful and interesting insights from someone who has experience of law enforcement. Always welcome on this subject.

If anyone in the forum is interested in reading the full texts of the relevent legislation and court judgements etc, this site is useful:

http://www.bkta.org/

By the way, Jackdaw, I am rather fond of a 'Gucci' item or two, but as a responsible blade owner, I wouldn't carry one without what I felt to be a justifiable excuse, or indeed a good reason. I hope you understand that I'm not intending to be confrontational by expressing this opinion. I just like ‘Gucci’ :)

Best regards,
Paul.
 

grumpy-monkey

Member
Mar 31, 2006
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0
47
sheffield
i carry a leatherman wave with me most of the time they come in bloody handy in most situations ..
oh has anyone ever bought one of the knife kits from swc handmade knifes
what r they like ?
 

TheGreenMan

New Member
Feb 17, 2006
1,000
8
beyond the pale
grumpy-monkey said:
i carry a leatherman wave with me most of the time they come in bloody handy in most situations ..
oh has anyone ever bought one of the knife kits from swc handmade knifes
what r they like ?

Hello grumpy-monkey,

I have an SWC kit, it's a very strong blade, it arrives with a sharp edge, and it can be sharpened to a razor-like edge. If you buy one I doubt if you'll regret it.

Best regards,
Paul
 

hardyferret

Member
Nov 21, 2006
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Dorset
So today as I went about my work (mobile industrial mechanical fitter),I was stopped for entering a 30 limit at 39 by a very hidden policeman behind an unmarked van!!
Anyway as my details are taken his colleague is peering into my van, and after the details are done, remarks that my knife (RM clone) which is sheathed on the seat is in a public place and as such an offensive weapon!! and I could be arrested for this
He then questioned why I had this and why it was on the seat, I explained that Iam involved in bushcraft and use it at times with my work to cut rope etc.
To which he remarked why wasn't it in the back in a tolbox or something.
I must be honest at this point I was getting fed up with such pettiness, and made a point of finding a nice piece of rag a carefully wrapping it and placing it in my toolbox.
Is it any wonder that many people have a real distrust of the police, or am I being treated correctly over my knife.
Iam 41 white no ear rings etc, and wearing pair of overalls so not looking strange
Would love to hear others views etc

Kind regards Hardyferret :rolleyes:
 

Bushcraft4life

Settler
Dec 31, 2006
859
3
32
London
I agree with you hardyferret. I wouldn't trust the police as far as i could throw them to be honest. Seems there always going on about such pettiness instead of doing there jobs and catching the real bad guys. Not like you had a fat Rambo knife and you were wielding it in the middle of the street. RM clone. Silly buggers.
 

ArkAngel

Native
May 16, 2006
1,201
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North Yorkshire
I used to work with North Yorkshire police on a daily basis from the humble street bobby to inspectors and chief inspectors.

Like anyone else they are human and have good and bad days like the rest of us. Like all workplaces there are people who are good at their job and people who frankly should not have got through the door.

There are police officers in North Yorkshire who are the nicest people you would ever want to meet, sensible, level headed with plenty of common sense. They are hard workers and nothing is too much trouble for them. The world would be a better and safer place if there were more officers like them.

To every ying there is a yang and with no exception there are police officers in North Yorkshire that i wouldn't p**s on if they were on fire. Ignorant, unhelpfull little herberts with a god complex who go out of their way to be unlikeable and awkward. The sense of humour is removed during training.

A lot of it IMO is down to the selection process. Your suitability to join the force is scored....it is a numbers game, you score enough points- you're in.

I attempted to join the force about 4 years ago, the physical was a joke 30 press ups(or better), 30 sit ups(or better) in a minute, level 4-5 on a bleep test(or better), grip strength etc etc. You did bad on one you could make it up on the others. As a consequence people who could hardly look you in the eye and had no life experience could get in. At no time in the 18months i was involved with the selection process did anyone actually ask me "why do you want to be a police officer?" no-one seemed interested in that :confused:

It may sound like sour grapes as i didn't get in but dealing with them on a daily basis happened after that and i am VERY glad i didn't get in. It is a fustrating job and i definately don't have the aptitude to do it.

It's like everything else hardyferret, if you had got stopped by a different officer you may have had a 30 minute conversation about the merits of nettle cordage :D (and got away with your speeding!!)
 

dwardo

Maker
Aug 30, 2006
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hardyferret said:
So today as I went about my work (mobile industrial mechanical fitter),I was stopped for entering a 30 limit at 39 by a very hidden policeman behind an unmarked van!!
Anyway as my details are taken his colleague is peering into my van, and after the details are done, remarks that my knife (RM clone) which is sheathed on the seat is in a public place and as such an offensive weapon!! and I could be arrested for this
He then questioned why I had this and why it was on the seat, I explained that Iam involved in bushcraft and use it at times with my work to cut rope etc.
To which he remarked why wasn't it in the back in a tolbox or something.
I must be honest at this point I was getting fed up with such pettiness, and made a point of finding a nice piece of rag a carefully wrapping it and placing it in my toolbox.
Is it any wonder that many people have a real distrust of the police, or am I being treated correctly over my knife.
Iam 41 white no ear rings etc, and wearing pair of overalls so not looking strange
Would love to hear others views etc

Kind regards Hardyferret :rolleyes:

I expect you just got a bit of a cocky policeman who instead of thinking that there's a chance that a guy might have a reasonable use for a knife such as yours before getting on his self righteous box. Now before some say.... "it should be hidden away" ...."if not kept in a locked box incase it goes off accidentally and kills someone".... Its in his car in a sheath and not hung on his rear view mirror :banghead:

I am not trying to typecast our bobbies because as i have met loads of really nice police men and police women and they have a pretty awful job. The ones i have a problem with is the ejits tend to hide behind the latest media hyped focus of hate for this week:- this week its dangerous dogs, the week before pedophiles and the week before migrants.

The only way i can console my self is to think that most of us are pretty decent folk and you hear more of the bone heads than you do of the "nice bloke" thats all :eek: .
 

RGRBOX

New Member
I would have to agree that the Police have their hands full now days with work.. but to be picking on peopel for such petty stuff is rediculous. I would suggest they get out their an get busy hunitng some real crime. It is sad that he would let you go for speeding, but give you a hard time about a knife..

RB
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
hardyferret said:
So today as I went about my work (mobile industrial mechanical fitter),I was stopped for entering a 30 limit at 39 by a very hidden policeman behind an unmarked van!!
Anyway as my details are taken his colleague is peering into my van, and after the details are done, remarks that my knife (RM clone) which is sheathed on the seat is in a public place and as such an offensive weapon!! and I could be arrested for this
He then questioned why I had this and why it was on the seat, I explained that Iam involved in bushcraft and use it at times with my work to cut rope etc.
To which he remarked why wasn't it in the back in a tolbox or something.
I must be honest at this point I was getting fed up with such pettiness, and made a point of finding a nice piece of rag a carefully wrapping it and placing it in my toolbox.
Is it any wonder that many people have a real distrust of the police, or am I being treated correctly over my knife.
Iam 41 white no ear rings etc, and wearing pair of overalls so not looking strange
Would love to hear others views etc

Kind regards Hardyferret :rolleyes:

Fixed blade = not s139 CJA 88 compliant, therefore you need to show good reason why you were carrying it.

Bushcraft.... where is the rest of your kit, are you on your way to or from a site or should it be at home?
Use at work.... mobile industrial fitter cutting rope with a bushcraft knife... show me the rope please, why a sheath knife, why on the seat not in a toolbox? The last one is a winner.

Whether you agree with the law as it stands or not is immaterial - you will attract police attention if you carry a sheath knife on the seat of your car.

I know plenty of places where this would have got you arrested. IMHO you were wrong here, not the police.
 

andyn

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 15, 2005
2,392
29
Hampshire
www.naturescraft.co.uk
hardyferret said:
So today as I went about my work (mobile industrial mechanical fitter),I was stopped for entering a 30 limit at 39 by a very hidden policeman behind an unmarked van!!
Anyway as my details are taken his colleague is peering into my van, and after the details are done, remarks that my knife (RM clone) which is sheathed on the seat is in a public place and as such an offensive weapon!! and I could be arrested for this
He then questioned why I had this and why it was on the seat, I explained that Iam involved in bushcraft and use it at times with my work to cut rope etc.
To which he remarked why wasn't it in the back in a tolbox or something.
I must be honest at this point I was getting fed up with such pettiness, and made a point of finding a nice piece of rag a carefully wrapping it and placing it in my toolbox.
Is it any wonder that many people have a real distrust of the police, or am I being treated correctly over my knife.
Iam 41 white no ear rings etc, and wearing pair of overalls so not looking strange
Would love to hear others views etc

Kind regards Hardyferret :rolleyes:

Sorry Hardyfeet, but sounds like you were very lucky to not get taken down to the cells imo.

"Is it any wonder that many people have a real distrust of the police"

Why because you were let off for having a fixed blade knife on your front seat for no reason. Or because you were let off for speeding? Sounds to me you should be blumming grateful.

If you were a policeman i take it you would have just ignored a fixed blade knife sat on a passenger seat in a van that was just pulled over for speeding? If so we definately need more police like that in this country! :rolleyes:

Also, what on earth, has you appearance got to do with anything?

Lastly...leave your knife at home next time unless you have a real use for it...then when you get pulled for speeding next you won't have to explain yourself.
 
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Quickbeam

Member
Aug 6, 2005
24
1
Durham
Andy, I agree with almost all your post apart from the last bit...

andyn said:
Lastly...leave your knife at home next time unless you have a real use for it...

It sounds as if Hardyferret had a use for his knife, he just didn't have it stored sensibly.

Nick
 

Wayland

Hárbarðr
hardyferret said:
Is it any wonder that many people have a real distrust of the police, or am I being treated correctly over my knife.
Iam 41 white no ear rings etc, and wearing pair of overalls so not looking strange

I would say you were dealt with leniently over your knife.

andyn said:
Also, what on earth, has you appearance got to do with anything?

Speaking as someone who gets regularly stopped for no other apparent reason other than looking a bit dodgy, I agree, your appearance shouldn't have anything to do with it........but it does...... :rolleyes:
 

Lurch

New Member
Aug 9, 2004
1,879
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www.lakelandbushcraft.co.uk
A chap called Kenneth Noye knifed a fellow following a traffic incident, he didn't look strange or dress funny.
I think I'm quite comfortable with the dibble questioning someone's purpose in having a potential weapon clearly on display in their vehicle.
 

WhichDoctor

Nomad
Aug 12, 2006
384
1
Shropshire
I would have to agree with the other people here. Cutting rope don't require a sheath knife and it doesn't need to be on your passenger seat when your driving. A penknife leather-man or swiss army knife should be more than sufficient.

If I was a policeman and pulled someone over for speeding to find a big knife within easy reach of the driver for know apparent reason I would start to get concerned as well. Just because you know your knot a nutter doesn't mean other people will know automatically, people (especially police) have to take situations at face value.

I would say it's a credit to the coppers involved that they exercised discretion in your case, and didn't charge you for what (whether you like it or not) is a real crime.
 

chrisanson

Nomad
Apr 12, 2006
390
7
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Dudley
By the same token I don’t think people should be treated as a criminal without due cause . Its all about how we are treated as fools and criminals in this society at the moment .
I was bought up to take responsibility for my own actions and treat things like knives with the respect that any other tool would demand. This kind of treatment in my opinion just cause’s more resentment of people who should be treated with respect. Chris
 

chewie

Tenderfoot
Jan 16, 2005
67
6
England
chrisanson said:
This kind of treatment in my opinion just cause’s more resentment of people who should be treated with respect. Chris

As opposed to arresting and incarcerating him?

Trust me, he was allowed discretion against the majority decision here. Hardyferret should consider himself fortunate.

It's good to share experiences for others to learn from, but this isn't a plod-bashing thread last time I looked. As I have already said, whether you agree with the law or not, an offence was committed and dealt with using discretion. What more are you expecting for pity's sake?
 
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