I'm sorry if i wasn't clear, I didnt mention what was legal or not under either PACE or CJA I am simply trying to provide some good advice to you folk who carry and use knives responsibly. The word reasonable was used to differentiate between a paramedic carrying a rescue hook for RTAs and a B&Q worker claiming that his 12" hunting knife is for opening boxes with. the law is a little unclear on the subject of knives and i think that has been shown by the fact that there is 3 pages of posts on the subject as far as I know no CJA s.139 knife needs to be carried for a reason but no police officer in the UK will stand there and measure the blade and then get involved in a debate about the locking mechanism If you are honest and open you shouldn't have a problem especially since under PACE there must be reasonable grounds to search you unless subject to a s.60 search which is usually confined to football matches etc. if poeple are open and honest we tend to be quite understanding, we use the 'ways and means act' more than you might think.
Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......
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I have to admit that you're particular situation isn't one that I have come across very often, or at all in fact. I'm happy to give you my opinion but I can't say that other Police Officers would react to you the way that I would. I think that as controversial as it sounds, working within our own areas we all know our usual offender 'types', what they might be up to and what they might be carrying. It would waste a lot of our time stopping vehicles that didn't arouse our suspicions. aparently, you're vehicle is stopped quite frequently, probably because of the very early/late hours that you use it and perhaps to some degree your 'vikingesque' features. I still think that if I were to search you're vehicle and find the spears, knives and other ancient tools I would be lenient provided you told me they were there and why and that your vehicle and personal details were ok (no precons, WE, FI or VE markers). I would strongly recommend that you take these items out of the van when you are not on your way to/from work, you mentioned you're livelyhood depended on not being arrested etc. so is it worth losing you're job just for the sake of not taking them out?
Thank you Spoing.
That's pretty much as I thought. I do use the van for very little other than for work. It is usually the side trips that present the legal problem.
Is there any department within the force that I could approach for a more definate opinion do you think?
That's pretty much as I thought. I do use the van for very little other than for work. It is usually the side trips that present the legal problem.
Is there any department within the force that I could approach for a more definate opinion do you think?
I would contact PNLD which is the police national legal database folk, there is usually way to contact them on most force's website or www.askthe.police.uk.
GMP's legal postion on knives is as such......
"It is illegal to carry any sharp or bladed instrument in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62 cm (3 inches)).
A lock knife is not a folding pocket knife and therefore it is illegal to carry around such a knife regardless of the length of the blade. A lock knife means a knife which is similar to a folding knife, in that there is a spring holding the blade closed. However, a lock knife has a mechanism which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released. A lock knife is not an offensive weapon per se (because these knives were made with a specific purpose in mind and not as a weapon). However, possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse is an offence.
Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person in a public place (screwdriver, can opener). It is for the person to prove on the balance of probabilities that he/she had good reason for possession.
The penalty for committing this offence is a minimum prison sentence of six months, maximum two years and/or a fine."
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the welcome by the way.
GMP's legal postion on knives is as such......
"It is illegal to carry any sharp or bladed instrument in a public place (with the exception of a folding pocket knife, which has a blade that is less than 7.62 cm (3 inches)).
A lock knife is not a folding pocket knife and therefore it is illegal to carry around such a knife regardless of the length of the blade. A lock knife means a knife which is similar to a folding knife, in that there is a spring holding the blade closed. However, a lock knife has a mechanism which locks the blade in position when fully extended, the blade cannot be closed without that mechanism being released. A lock knife is not an offensive weapon per se (because these knives were made with a specific purpose in mind and not as a weapon). However, possession of a lock knife in a public place without reasonable excuse is an offence.
Possession of a multi-tool incorporating a prohibited blade/pointed article is capable of being an offence under this section even if there are other tools on the instrument which may be of use to a person in a public place (screwdriver, can opener). It is for the person to prove on the balance of probabilities that he/she had good reason for possession.
The penalty for committing this offence is a minimum prison sentence of six months, maximum two years and/or a fine."
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the welcome by the way.
sploing said:
That doesn't sound right to me - you're saying the minimum sentence is a six month prison term? Are you still talking about s 139 CJA 1988?
(Welcome from me too btw).
I will have to look it up but that's just a quote from GMP's public website so I assume it's correct. I will find a definite answer and post it as soon as I have.
Hmmm. Interesting, CJA only gives a fine as punishment. Maybe the custodial sentence is given under PACE.
*wanders off to find the huge PACE book that would probably do more damage than a knife anyway*
*wanders off to find the huge PACE book that would probably do more damage than a knife anyway*
CJA also mentions that it would be a summary offence, so only triable at magistrates court so the maximum sentence would be 6 months in any case, thats if a custodial were aplicable but it way mean summary in the old sense before indictable offences under PACE.
Ah, the custodian sentence was introduced well after CJA 1988 as an amendment to that act given in the offensvie weapons act 1996 S.3.
This thread has been here there and everywhere and it now comes back to my original question again, and I am still unclear of wether I would be ok or not with my leatherman on my belt. All questions have been answered, but it is the law itself that is unclear. Some police officers may say that me being a builder is ok to carry it, but others may arrest me. Stupid law...........
when i was a game keeper in trinning i was stoped in lincoln by the police for carrying my leatherman on my belt i looked at the guy and told him that i was a gamekeeper and i used it hundreds of times a day and would be lost with out it and it was unfaoir of him to coment when he had one on his belt hem self 
how could he tell me off when it was ok for hem to carry one
he appolagized sp and let me go
how could he tell me off when it was ok for hem to carry one
he appolagized sp and let me go
Thanks for clearing that up Sploing (and welcome to BCUK).
To clarify things, my only issue was with your comment in post: 455 above, where you say: "My advice is to carry a reasonable knife if you HAVE to"
This does imply that a 3" folder is something that people should be wary of carrying every day, when in fact it is completely Legal to do so, as you have since made clear in your subsequent posts.
In the RIGHT CONTEXT, ANY knife (apart from prohibited items) can be carried in public, provided that it is not openly on display, is stored appropriately, and is not being carried as an offensive weapon.
This IS the Law in England, however, there is still the potential to be arrested for posession of an offensive weapon (at the discretion of the arresting officer) but providing that all of the above criteria have been met, it is extremely unlikely that the CPS will persue the case.
The whole point of this thread has been to try and bring some clarity to the issue of carrying a knife in the UK, so it is important that the infomation is accurate.
To clarify things, my only issue was with your comment in post: 455 above, where you say: "My advice is to carry a reasonable knife if you HAVE to"
This does imply that a 3" folder is something that people should be wary of carrying every day, when in fact it is completely Legal to do so, as you have since made clear in your subsequent posts.
In the RIGHT CONTEXT, ANY knife (apart from prohibited items) can be carried in public, provided that it is not openly on display, is stored appropriately, and is not being carried as an offensive weapon.
This IS the Law in England, however, there is still the potential to be arrested for posession of an offensive weapon (at the discretion of the arresting officer) but providing that all of the above criteria have been met, it is extremely unlikely that the CPS will persue the case.
The whole point of this thread has been to try and bring some clarity to the issue of carrying a knife in the UK, so it is important that the infomation is accurate.
Reasonable folk like yourselves have nothing to fear when carrying a folding knife with a blade under three inches, I've done a little more reasearch and knives which fit these criteria are completely legal without the need to have a reason for carrying them. Although if you have no reason to carry the knife, why would you want to do so? If I were to catch one of my 'regular' clients carrying such a blade, legal or not, they would definitely come up against 'ways and means' simply because I know that it would be used to commit some kind of crime, it's not strictly by the book but it's common sense.
oh and Jon Pickett, the problem is that the law is open to interpretation, what constitutes "reasonable grounds?" I personally agree that you being a builder justifies you carrying a leatherman, just as I do at work. I'd like to think that most police officers would agree with me but even if you were arrested for this offence any half decent solicitor would be able to get the charges dropped, even a duty solicitor and most police officers would realize this making it a waste of time arresting you. You would have to be VERY unlucky to get into any trouble over this issue providing you are honest and polite with whoever you are dealing with
Cheers for that Sploing, I would like to think that too, shame it comes down to luck though.........sploing said:
sploing said:
Welcome to the forums sploing - always good to have a cop on board.
But I have to say, you have no idea how much the mere mention of the "1988 ways and means act" makes me seethe.
I am a registered nurse, I'm 41 years old and as I'm sure you are aware, I had to have a complete police check before being allowed to enter my profession. I have no criminal record whatsoever and am a member of one of the most respected and peaceable professions there is. I dont hurt people, I make them well when they are sick.
I also carry with me, almost always, a 3 inch none locking folding knife. I carry it because I feel like it, I dont need a reason and the law does not require me to provide one.
You could arrest me for posession of an offensive weapon, but I would not accept a police caution - I have never carried any knife as a weapon and never will. I would fight that charge through every stage and I would demand disciplinary action against vthe arresting officer ...and if there is any justice in the world, I would get it.
There is no place in a just and lawful society for "the ways and means act".
Not everyone who carries a pocket knife is a criminal.
I'm not familiar with the ways and means act and have never heard of it ... but if I were to be, I would understand that all its provisions specifically apply only to known recidivist criminals. Registered nurses are exempt.
So, there's an old bull and a young bull on top of a hill, looking down on a field of cows....
So, there's an old bull and a young bull on top of a hill, looking down on a field of cows....
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