Our own course

[falcon]

Both of the responses from Wayne and Peds8045 are exploring legimate points IMHO. Wayne's concerns arise from the fact that someone promoting/organising training is taking on liability through what he is trying to organise and more particularly, the techniques he's trying to teach. He's also charging a fee for it. He could therefore be open to a claim if someone is injured as a result of the methods being shown. That's why schools take out insurance cover and why insurers ask for risk assessments, method statements etc.

The scenario described by Peds8045 is one we're very familiar with and while landowner's PL cover may be in place, the informal gathering has not offered training in return for a fee so the "organiser" has no need to cover such risks. Where the Bushmoots sit between these two extremes is for someone else to decide....

I would have thought that provided your siteowner has PL cover you would have scope for people to get together.......but you would need to be careful how you defined the purpose concerning training.

 

[Buckshot]

I think everyone's said it all Nick !
Great idea in a world where everyone was as straight, sensible and honest as you.
Problem is we don't live in that world.

Not sure how much a group PLI would be. Perhaps everyone could chip in a couple of quid to cover PLI and other 'legalities' so people could share in comfort?
For what it's worth I'd be happy to help out if I can.

Mark

 

[Wayne]

I think everyone's said it all Nick !
Great idea in a world where everyone was as straight, sensible and honest as you.
Problem is we don't live in that world.

Not sure how much a group PLI would be. Perhaps everyone could chip in a couple of quid to cover PLI and other 'legalities' so people could share in comfort?
For what it's worth I'd be happy to help out if I can.

Mark

Even a non profit making event as already stated will still need all the paper work in place. Just look at the trouble people have to go through to hold a street party.
What we are talking about here is a good idea.

I am trying to point out that before I set up Forest Knights I wanted to teach at a club level. These were the problems I faced then.
Just because no money changes hands does not mean that the organiser of an event would not be on a manslaughter charge if someone ate said dodgy cooked breakfast. There is a reason I spend a fortune on insurance.

The other difficulty would be the trying to convince an insurer than the teaching staff are professional and competent. Remember the person setting the premium will have little experience of Bushcraft beyond the TV and no idea if any of you lot know one end of a knife from another.

Its always hard to point out potential pits falls as you come across as negitive. I am hosting an event in Jan with just this style of activity in mind. Skills sharing etc.

I think the problem lies with trying to formalise the event. However there are potential difficulties with everything.

I know that Nick said no children but this is a general point for all meet ups. Parents should be careful and supervise their children at all times. Everyone is aware that the internet community has some less desirable elements. At a meet, you are inviting strangers you met off the net to share your fire. Most people are kind decent folk. There have been times when I have been left alone supervising other peoples kids. This could have left them in potential harms way or me in a difficult situation. Sadly in our world we have to consider the unthinkable and act responsibly.

This has been a thought provoking thread. Hopefully it has been useful to help people understand the potential hazards of organising activities in the 21C.

 

[Eric_Methven]

Just as an aside, the Scouts, Guides and Ramblers Association have group insurance. This covers each regional group and their leaders automatically. They do however have guidelines within which they have to operate. I'm a member of the Association of Pole Lathe Turners and we have group insurance for all members. It allows us to demonstrate our craft at public events, but excludes teaching or 'have a go' events. For that we need our own PLI.

Now I'm not saying what Falling Rain suggests is a bad idea, I think it's great in principle, but you all need to cover your backs. If the idea is to have regular meets, then checking out the PLI situation would be worth while. Anyone intending to organise (even informally), or give instruction at such a meet needs to protect themselves.

If any of you decide to go down this route, it's going to cost you money. Therefore by that fact alone, the idea of it being FREE isn't going to work unless you are a philanthropist. You could however work out the costs and divvy up the premium.

It's also worth considering how you describe the activities you intend to undertake. I know people who teach woodcraft for a living, but also teach basketmaking and besom broom making, so they get PLI as a teacher of 'craft skills'. As far as the insurers are concerned they could be teaching flower arranging.

By mentioning Bushcraft, it triggers thoughts of Survival which triggers thought of Rambo = very expensive.

Consider what you'll be teaching and see if it covers a 'craft skill' area. Qualifications are not always necessary from an insurance POV. Years of experience can be just as valid.

Just a few points to think about.

Eric

 

[swyn]

The Christmas Moot is being run on very informal lines. Our insurers insisted that the BCUK public liability matched that of our own, and this is 5M. I originally thought that this would be an easy thing to organise BUT there are then obligations that this cover requires, ie, a HSE check to ensure that we, as venue providers, have done our very best to provide a safe environment (rabbit holes et al). The insurers are then happy to offer cover.
There is specialist EVENT INSURANCE available for as little as £50-00 for just this type of weekend that Falling Rain is considering. This sum will get you 1M liability cover. The insurers will ask the value of the land owners cover and usually insist that the event cover matches it.
YAAAAAWN! But this is what I have been doing behind the scenes so hopefully everyone has a pleasant and safe weekend.
Five bods....£10-00 each. Ten bods.....£5-00 each, easy eh?
Remember this is just an informal week-end. NO instructors. NO special courses. We're covered and although I will find it hard to relax properly for the whole week-end I will at least not loose my house/skin if there is a catastrophic accident!
Swyn.

 

[falling rain]

Well I can only shake my head in disbelief. What a flippin malarky. Part of the idea was just to go and do it without any of the bull*hit. Nice and simple and straight forward. I've been made aware of a few things now folks so thanks for pointing them out. I've organised a few things on here but won't be doing any more. I did a few lessons for the council and was insured under them, or they were insured should I say. I would have thought that as Peds pointed out that if there was no money changing hands that it wouldn't be a problem. And as I illustrated earlier on the mushroom scenario, can anyone here be sued for giving mis-information or for that matter giving the correct information, but the picker mis-identifying the mushroom, meaning he hasn't picked the one that he posted a picture of and asked about originally. But made a mistake himself. Who gets sued then? - I would have said no-one because the picker made the mistake and was responsible for picking the mushroom albeit the wrong one, but going on information he read on here. He just mis-identified the mushroom in question. It's his fault.
Another country (America) With different laws no doubt but imagine it happened here. Could the family of Chris MacCandless (into the wild) have sued the author of the book for describing the plant he ate a lot of as edible, but failing to point out that it concentrated toxins if eaten in excess, which is what made him so weak and ultimately led to his not being able to get food or hunt, which in turn led to his death combined with the toxins.It's all WAY too much hassle for me.

 

[JonnyP]

This is all so sad. Nick, I think it was you that organised the first Dartmoor meet I went to (the really wet one), and although you never made it to the meet, I met many decent people that weekend and it has gone on to me going to many more meets, which I have really enjoyed, if people like you stop organising meets because of all this cr@p, then this world is a much worser place. I fully understand your decision though, I would be the same under the circumstances....
Well done for trying mate.....

 

[weekend_warrior]

This is all so sad. Nick, I think it was you that organised the first Dartmoor meet I went to (the really wet one), and although you never made it to the meet, I met many decent people that weekend and it has gone on to me going to many more meets, which I have really enjoyed, if people like you stop organising meets because of all this cr@p, then this world is a much worser place. I fully understand your decision though, I would be the same under the circumstances....
Well done for trying mate.....

Couldn't agree more Jon - I went on the Dartmoor/Sea fishing meet and it was brilliant. It's a sad day when this kind of bull**it stops play. Major kudos to you though Nick for all you have organised, and so well, in the past. :You_Rock_

 

[falling rain]

I'm not after kudos W.W. just I really, really, really, don't mind organising stuff and sharing the little that I know. I don't want praise I just enjoy doing it, which some people seem to understand and some don't.. I'm not after people telling me what a nice guy I am, I'm just fed up with hoodies, snobbery (at work), rude inconsiderate abrupt people in everyday life, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, Immigration, or any of the other problems going on. and on this site there are good people who I'd like to do something for and maybe , but not necessarily though ( because I don't give, expecting to recieve) could show me and others something too in return, without any complicated unecessary bull*hit. At the risk of embarrasing people I'll tell you a few. Stuart for his traps and snares knowledge and the fact that he's been everywhere and learnt from the people that do this stuff as a way of life not a hobby. Ed who what he dosn't know about snares, plants, game and much much more could be written on the back of a postage stamp. Buckshot for his game knowledge and stalking abilities, Willowbark and Toddy for their plant knowledge, and there's many, many more. I'm not after praise I quite simply have no problem with it. I'm not so good at putting things into words or explaining myself sometimes but I just genuinely believe that we can share so much here without the modern bull*hit rules and regulations and sueing and it's your faults, and blame games. Strewth the worlds gone crazy and extremely selfish. Why is everything so complicated these days. I realise that H&E is there to protect the innocent from the evil or inattentive and to set standards so we don't get impaled or poisened or whatever and in these times it's sometimes necessary but I think it's gone too far and is overkill.
No names, but a couple of people have PM'd me and are up for some recipicol (spelling)? learning without being slaughtered for it, so I'm going to go with that. I fear, reading back through this that I'm not coming across as I want, but I hope I am.

 

[John Dixon]

i think the idea is fantastic and i would like to help unfortunatly the meet your talking about is too far from me, i have £10million PLI which covers Bushcraft activities.
If you are interested in getting insurance i would suggest contact IOL the Instittute for Outdoor Learning. they have connections to an insurance company that cna give you very realist insurance especialy for an organisation that has a small turnover. Their insurance company is Jardyne LLoyd and Thompson but first you need to join the IOL.

For local meets i may be able to help more. GOOD LUCK

 

[weaver]

The way we've done it in the past is to have an informal gathering of like minded people who pay their own way and freely exchange skills on an informal and when needed basis. That way you turn up when you can and leave when you must. You do your own thing (showing others if they're interested) and observe someone else when you see something new. It doesn't cost anything other than your fuel costs and camping fees.

Eric

I've helped organize events like this in the States and it works to a point. You may not get the best instructors and some folks always want to show how to do better.

Twice a year is plenty for large gatherings. We had people drive 1200 miles each way and were happy they did, but one time only. Mostly local or regional people will attend.

Large groups are very difficult to manage. Over 20 and you need a great team working together to keep everything safe and on schedule. 8-10 seems to be perfect for an informal gathering.

I am only having groups at my little woods now, the camp grounds and National forests have too many restrictions. I have first aid, clean water, a shooting range and my work shop to help make the time safe, enjoyable and entertaining. Nothing formal at all, just good friends getting together to learn from each other.