Law Relating to Saws

[Bartooon]

I was wondering where I stand legally when carrying my Laplander both in the forest and travelling to and from them. I usually carry it in a sheath on my belt, but I'm not sure whether the saw is covered by the UK knife laws.

In his excellent thread on knife law, Tony says "the Act includes 'any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed' it extends to the other edged tools used in bushcraft".

Clearly, I can't stab anyone with a saw, but I suppose, in theory, I could cause some nasty slashing wounds if I was so inclined so it could be considered an offensive weapon under some circumstances. Personally, if I saw someone walking down the street with a 14" saw in their hand I wouldn't be worried whereas I would probably be a bit more wary about someone with a similar length knife.

So, my question is, is the sheathed Laplander included in UK knife law or is it OK unless I make it become an offensive weapon by my intentions (by using it in a threatening way etc)?

 

[Mesquite]

So, my question is, is the sheathed Laplander included in UK knife law or is it OK unless I make it become an offensive weapon by my intentions (by using it in a threatening way etc)?

Yes a laplander is included in UK knife law as it has a blade capable of being locked open. The law doesn't state what type of cutting edge it has to have.

However if you're carrying it responsibly and have a legitimate reason for doing so then you're ok.

By definition carrying it responsibly means if you're in a wood or an area where you could be using it or transporting it to or back from such an area and you have it in your hand or in a sheath you shouldn't have any problem. However if you were to go into a public area like a shopping centre or pub with it in a sheath on your belt you'd probably find you'll be nicked

 

[brambles]

You are confusing seperate pieces of legislation - lock knives are illegal in public places under one and bladed or sharply pointed items under another. A saw is prima facie not a knife. The bladed or sharply pointed items legislation is just bad law. Carrying a pen or pencil? Lock him up! And don't get me started on those dangerous ice skates ..... off to court now LOL

 

[R.Lewis]

There have been cases where people have got into trouble for being caught with a folding saw. Also bear in mind that if you do not have consent you may well have no right to carry it in a wooded area.

 

[boatman]

Please cite cases of people who have got into trouble for being caught with a folding saw. Crude I know but I have just Googled "folding saw conviction" for zero relevant results.
Why would you need consent to carry it in a wooded area? And who on earth would you ask in most cases?

 

[Bartooon]

Technically, in my case, I guess I would have to ask the permission the Forestry Commission who look after the New Forest. That said, I don't go round felling trees etc. I generally only take bits of dead, fallen or already felled trees and even then, not much.
I suppose that since I don't actually own the trees, carrying the saw could be construed as going equipped to commit theft, but by that token so would be the ladies from the Women's Institute etc who might go off to the woods with a pair of secateurs to get some catkins or holly for their flower arranging or carrying a Tesco carrier bag when going to "steal" blackberries!

 

[EdS]

CJA 1988 s 139 referes to ANY bladed article:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...s-with-blades-or-points-and-offensive-weapons

It covers both the blade length ab locking.

It is one piece of legislation not 2.

Yes technically a saw is a bladed item. But if in a pack or being used as a tool with permission the police are unlikely to be bothered - too much paper work. However, if you are wearing it on a belt in town or fooling around in public that is a different matter. Also remember some urban areas have additional local laws / byelaws.

Offensive weapons are covered by Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (Offensive Weapons) s. 1. The term 'offensive weapon' is defined as: "any article made or adapted for use to causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use".

Any thing can be an offensive weapon if it has been adapted t ocause injury or the intent it is used with.
Lord Lane, CJ. in R v Simpson (C) (78 Cr. App. R. 115), identified three categories of offensive weapons:

• those made for causing injury to the person i.e. offensive per se. For examples of weapons that are offensive per se, see Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988, (Stones 8-22745) and case law decisions. (Archbold 24-116). The Criminal Justice Act (1988) (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2008 came into force on 6th April 2008 with the effect that a sword with a curved blade of 50cm or more (samurai sword), has been added to the schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988;
• those adapted for such a purpose;
• those not so made or adapted, but carried with the intention of causing injury to the person.

 

[HillBill]

You will only ever get in to trouble if your using the saw in a threatening manner. End of.

 

[Tony]

Generally anything that's hard and sharp will come under the suspicions of the police if there's no good reason to have it, of course there's some police that are very good at understanding the law when it comes to sharp things, often it doesn't matter if it's actually a problem or not, it just has to be perceived as a problem which is why carrying a folding saw should be packed away until it's needed, having permission to be on land that would necessitate a saw for the activity would be a strong argument of the need to have it, thus there's no issue and most reasonable people will be fine.
It's a much harder defence saying, yeah, i've carried this here in my pocket to be somewhere i'm not supposed to be and therefore doing things i've not got permission to do.

We need to avoid issues and prove that we're being responsible even if it means we're way inside the law compared to what we could get away with in theory.

 

[R.Lewis]

There was a guy on here who had his confiscated (along with other edged tools) Police classed it as a locking blade and hence illegal. I'm not saying that you will get in trouble, just that it is possible if very unlucky.

It does not stop me from taking mine out...

 

[boatman]

There was a guy on here who had his confiscated (along with other edged tools) Police classed it as a locking blade and hence illegal. I'm not saying that you will get in trouble, just that it is possible if very unlucky.

It does not stop me from taking mine out...

Was he the one who took his sharp tools into the police station to ask their opinion? But no charges etc just a waste of his time and that of the police.

 

[brambles]

CJA 1988 s 139 referes to ANY bladed article:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...s-with-blades-or-points-and-offensive-weapons

It covers both the blade length ab locking.

Except it does'nt. It relates to bladed or sharply pointed items only. Locking knives are covered by seperate legislation relating to offensive weapons. And S.139 ( England & Wales) or S.49 ( Scotland) are bad law because although they are intended to deal with knife blades they use the word blade only - so as I said , under a law banning "blades" skates are illegal, and oars, and grass, and bits of your body ... the list goes on. A saw is a tool, full stop. It would only be a weapon if you hit someone with it, and then it would have the same status as any item adapted or intended for use as a weapon - it becomes an offensive weapon because of your intent and not because of anything to do with how it exists in its' own right.

 

[EdS]

Locking knives are not legislated as offensive weapons. Go read the legislation again. Things are classed offensive if they ate designed or adapted to primary cause harm or used with intent
Section 139 covers locking knives by way of quoting what is edc.

Once you work enforcing legislation you get the hang of understanding it

 

[brambles]

I'm afraid that you are , simply speaking, completely wrong. Lock knives are classed as fixed blade and considered prima facie offensive weapons if carried in a public place unless the carrier can demonstrate lawful purpose. This is exactly the same in England & Wales and in Scotland, and they are specifically prosecuted as offensive weapons rather than bladed items because they are considered to be an aggravated offence. When your job is representing people every day in the criminal courts you more than "get the hang of it".

 

[ganstey]

Technically, in my case, I guess I would have to ask the permission the Forestry Commission who look after the New Forest. That said, I don't go round felling trees etc. I generally only take bits of dead, fallen or already felled trees and even then, not much.
I suppose that since I don't actually own the trees, carrying the saw could be construed as going equipped to commit theft, but by that token so would be the ladies from the Women's Institute etc who might go off to the woods with a pair of secateurs to get some catkins or holly for their flower arranging or carrying a Tesco carrier bag when going to "steal" blackberries!

In fact all the things you mention are specifically prohibited in the New Forest (and all other FC land) without specific written permission from the commissioners - Byelaw 5 vii of statutory instrument 1982 No 648.

Graham

 

[Jared]

I'm afraid that you are , simply speaking, completely wrong. Lock knives are classed as fixed blade and considered prima facie offensive weapons if carried in a public place unless the carrier can demonstrate lawful purpose. This is exactly the same in England & Wales and in Scotland, and they are specifically prosecuted as offensive weapons rather than bladed items because they are considered to be an aggravated offence. When your job is representing people every day in the criminal courts you more than "get the hang of it".

If carrying a fixed knife without a valid reason in a public place, the charge would be "Having a blade or pointed article in a public place" CJA 1988 Section 139.

 

[Deleted member 36581]

If carrying a fixed knife without a valid reason in a public place, the charge would be "Having a blade or pointed article in a public place" CJA 1988 Section 139.

In Scotland it is section 49 criminal law consolidation (scotland) act 1995. Bladed and sharply pointed articles in public place. Essentially the same as the English equivalent. This covers lock knives and indeed any other knives.

For other weapons (intended, made or adapted for use) its section 47 of the same.

Which to put a small folding saw under i guess I'd be inclined to go with the s47 myself, however there may be case law which gives a definitive judgement on it.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[Deleted member 36581]

Double post - deleted

 

[boatman]

The items are not forbidden in the new Forest. The use of them is perhaps. Still, the question is academic because those worried about "carrying" a folding saw might just as well stay inside and watch bushcraft videos as they might break some other law by setting foot outside.

 

[calgarychef]

You can carry virtually anything you want to, if you behave and don't warrant a visit from the law. Keep your sharp stuff in your pack or out of sight, conduct yourself responsibly and the cops have no reason to search you.