Fairly common UK bow woods and their qualities

[Milo B]

Hi everyone,

I've been thinking about making a bow, and was wondering if any of you had opinions on fairly common UK bow woods(I think i'll leave Yew and osage orange for later).

The seemingly expert Derek Hutchison seems to be fairly keen on Hazel, it is really common so perhaps worth a go. I was wondering if any of you know how it compares to Ash, ash sometimes seems to regarded as easy to break, I think that it is good in compression, but perhaps Hazel is actually better in tension?

Sycamore might be another good choice, perhaps Cherry, and I managed to get a piece of Wych Elm today, would this be generally superior to the aforementioned woods?

Thank you for any advice,

Milo

 

[robin wood]

Ash and elm are used successfully by many bowyers if you have them use them and learn. I am surprised to hear someone having issues with ash does he discuss ring count? my experience comes from making tool handles and selling ash commercially as "sports ash" where similar properties are needed, more than 10 rings per inch is too slow grown and more brittle 6 per inch is about ideal. I would be surprised if sycamore was the best it has much shorter fibres.

 

[palmnut]

Hazel is a curious wood. If you get it wrong (i.e. too thin in one spot, even by a fraction of a mm) it will show you almost immediately by developing compression fractures ('crysals') on the belly at that point. That said, its tension strength means that it probably wont break on you in a totally dramatic and traumatic way. Because of this I find it an excellent wood to use to hone my skills, I don't know if I'd recommend it as a first time wood though. If you have access to it, I'd go with ash. If all you can get is hazel, by all means give it a go, but keep constant vigilance for the spot on the limb that is just a fraction thinner than that on either side of it. Look for long, straight overgrown hazel 'sun shoots' of about 4cm diameter and above; ash probably should be splits from a larger diameter trunk of the order of 15cm or more diameter

Peter

 

[dwardo]

Hazel is a great bow wood but the only problem I have is finding a trunk wide enough and clean. Hazel bows like to be wide to overcome the compression problems.

Ash is a great bow wood too but as Dave says it all down to getting the right bit. I have been experimenting quite a bit with ash lately and the early to late growth ratio seems to be the key. I had read as much but chose to bull on instead only to find out how important the ratio is. Most ash will make a 30-40 lb bow but any higher and you want the good stuff.

Sycamore unless backed with a good tension strong wood is next to useless. I tried 3 self bows and all of them blew very early in the tiller. The longest draw being about 20 inches before BANG>>

Elm is another great bow wood and is regularly made into WarBows of 150lb + It does like to be overbuilt a little to keep set down and heat treated. I am going to attempt a few heavy weight ELB types from it next.

Cherry is a personal favourite with the only problem being sourcing a nice straight knot free stave. The branches tend to be opposites leaving little or no room for a bow. Great in compression.

 

[Elen Sentier]

This thread is really interesting. I don't want to make bows but am fascinated by wood qualities and really would like to learn about them. Can anyone point me towards a good place?

 

[Milo B]

Thanks for the replies folks.

If Hazel is less forgiving than Ash like you folks say then I'll probably try Ash before hazel. By forgiving, I mean that as palm nut says, ash is better than hazel at coping with thin spots on the limbs from not quite perfect tillering. Probably because ash is better in compression?

dwardo, how to you find out the early to late growth ratio in ash, perhaps by looking at the growth rings? Thanks.

would you folks say that, generally, compressive strength is perhaps more important than tension strength, because with good compression strength, the bow can cope with being less wide, and can tolerate errors in belly tillering better?

Thanks very much folks, this is all very interesting.

 

[dwardo]

Thanks for the replies folks.

If Hazel is less forgiving than Ash like you folks say then I'll probably try Ash before hazel. By forgiving, I mean that as palm nut says, ash is better than hazel at coping with thin spots on the limbs from not quite perfect tillering. Probably because ash is better in compression?

Make both at the same time Then cut a few more staves whilst those two are drying. People new to bowyery often just cut one stave and only have one thing to work one at a time. This often causes them to rush the process be it bending wood that's still green or rushing the tiller all will kill your bow. If you have a fwe bows on the go you can put one down and walk away for a while. You can also give them the proper time to dry. The most important thing is just get out there and do it.

dwardo, how to you find out the early to late growth ratio in ash, perhaps by looking at the growth rings? Thanks.

Yup growth rings. Would have to look it up again but pretty sure its back to front with ash, dark being early and lighter being late. Too much spongy early wood ratio and density/strength suffers.

would you folks say that, generally, compressive strength is perhaps more important than tension strength, because with good compression strength, the bow can cope with being less wide, and can tolerate errors in belly tillering better?

You need a good mix of both. If you know a wood is "generally" and it can only ever be generally as wood is a living thing you can adjust your design to suit. To start you just want to make the bow as long as you are tall and start off 2-2.5 inch at the fades.

Thanks very much folks, this is all very interesting.

Added responses above. Remember though there are many opinions on all of this.

 

[robin wood]

dwardo, how to you find out the early to late growth ratio in ash, perhaps by looking at the growth rings? Thanks.

Yup growth rings. Would have to look it up again but pretty sure its back to front with ash, dark being early and lighter being late. Too much spongy early wood ratio and density/strength suffers.

This is correct the dark bit is early wood and has more pores. In faster grown wood you get a higher proportion of late wood (strong springy less pores) relative to early wood. The easy way is to go on ring count about 6 rings to the inch is perfect. Slow grown ash over 10 rings to the inch is more brittle. It is rare but I have used very very fast grown ash at 3 rings to the inch and this was almost like toffee, more plastic than elastic

 

[j111]

I've just roughed out a couple of staves in ash with very close rings, so much so I can hardly count them and a third from ash with a ring count of about 20/ inch. I was hoping for about 50lbs. Should I treat them any differently or would you expect them to fail?
Cheers

 

[palmnut]

would you folks say that, generally, compressive strength is perhaps more important than tension strength, because with good compression strength, the bow can cope with being less wide, and can tolerate errors in belly tillering better?

Hmmm, If it is compression weak and it fails, you generally just get compression cracks (called crysals) on the belly and the bow will take a lot of set (stays permanently bent).

If it is tension weak it can fail suddenly and dramatically (I'll post a pic later of a Whitebeam Molly I tried to make last summer if I remember). When a bow fails like this and it fails while you're drawing it they have this humorous tendency to smack you on the head and in the crackers simultaneously - causes much hilarity (but only from the point of view of your fellow archers ;-)

Peter

 

[palmnut]

(I'll post a pic later of a Whitebeam Molly I tried to make last summer if I remember).

Here's a tension failure that at least stayed in one piece. Luckily it failed on the tiller tree, not in my hand:

This wood is Whitebeam. You'll notice that the back is splintered to heck, but the belly is still perfect. I guess this tells me that Whitebeam is excellent in compression strength, but useless in tension. Based on this I would say that Whitebeam would make an excellent belly lam for a laminated bow, but forget it for the back - I'd love to see a Bamboo/Whitebeam laminated bow, if anyone fancies a challenge ;-)

Peter

 

[robin wood]

I've just roughed out a couple of staves in ash with very close rings, so much so I can hardly count them and a third from ash with a ring count of about 20/ inch. I was hoping for about 50lbs. Should I treat them any differently or would you expect them to fail?
Cheers

20 to the inch I would expect to be very weak. How did it feel when you worked it? I am not a bowyer but I work a lot of wood for different things. Good ash you should be able to split long thin bits off and tie them in a knot without them breaking, feel the shavings if the crack when you bend them then you dont want to be wasting time on it, there is plenty of good ash out there.

 

[Tiley]

Ash and Rowan for the wood; if you're using either, you will need to think about the design of your bow, opting for a flat bow/Holmgaard design to get the best from your chosen timber.

 

[dwardo]

Here's a tension failure that at least stayed in one piece. Luckily it failed on the tiller tree, not in my hand:

This wood is Whitebeam. You'll notice that the back is splintered to heck, but the belly is still perfect. I guess this tells me that Whitebeam is excellent in compression strength, but useless in tension. Based on this I would say that Whitebeam would make an excellent belly lam for a laminated bow, but forget it for the back - I'd love to see a Bamboo/Whitebeam laminated bow, if anyone fancies a challenge ;-)

Peter

Ouch! Could it have been too dry?

 

[dwardo]

I've just roughed out a couple of staves in ash with very close rings, so much so I can hardly count them and a third from ash with a ring count of about 20/ inch. I was hoping for about 50lbs. Should I treat them any differently or would you expect them to fail?
Cheers

Best chance is to overbuild. Go for 70+ inches long and 2.3 inches wide at the fades, pyramid bow. Or maybe 2 inches wide for 2/3rd of the limb then taper.
So far the ash I have tried that had a high RPI failed in compression (chrystals on the belly)

 

[j111]

Best chance is to overbuild. Go for 70+ inches long and 2.3 inches wide at the fades, pyramid bow. Or maybe 2 inches wide for 2/3rd of the limb then taper.
So far the ash I have tried that had a high RPI failed in compression (chrystals on the belly)

Thanks dwardo. Phew that's roughly what I've done. I done one as a long bow at 1 1/2" and over 70" to avoid knots and as an experment so will probably set out to make that one a lighter draw.

Is there a way to select ash with a low RPI count prior to cutting it down? The woods I cut trees from the ash grows very striaght and high to get light, so I guess they are more interested in height than girth. when they are smaller dia? Maybe once they reach the canopy they start gaining girth better? If so, I'm going to need a bigger axe!

 

[palmnut]

Ouch! Could it have been too dry?

I don't think so. I think that Whitebeam is simply not the right wood to make a relatively short Molly style bow out of!

I try again sometime with the sister stave, but this time it will be long and not have levers ;-)

Peter

 

[robin wood]

Is there a way to select ash with a low RPI count prior to cutting it down? The woods I cut trees from the ash grows very striaght and high to get light, so I guess they are more interested in height than girth. when they are smaller dia? Maybe once they reach the canopy they start gaining girth better? If so, I'm going to need a bigger axe!

Yes if you are a forester and can read the woodland you can make a pretty good estimate. It sounds like your ash are growing up under an existing canopy so starved of light and probably suffering root competition too. What you need is ash that has grown with plenty of light and space. You get this when they seed into open ground often after woodland is clear felled or coppiced there is good ash regen which will grow fast, also in scrub where woodland is growing up on abandoned farmland, brownfield sites etc it goes fast. Coppiced ash grows fast too.

 

[j111]

Yes if you are a forester and can read the woodland you can make a pretty good estimate. It sounds like your ash are growing up under an existing canopy so starved of light and probably suffering root competition too. What you need is ash that has grown with plenty of light and space. You get this when they seed into open ground often after woodland is clear felled or coppiced there is good ash regen which will grow fast, also in scrub where woodland is growing up on abandoned farmland, brownfield sites etc it goes fast. Coppiced ash grows fast too.

thanks that's interesting

 

[Gambrous]

Hey guys, thinking about trying my hand at making a bow, but unsure as to where to source the wood. I'd primarily like Ashwood, but any easy wood to start on would be nice.