Fifteen hundred quid would be a lot steep, but I'm not doing a liner (at the moment) and even if I buy 14oz duck canvas, it'd only come in at £400, and I'm not using fabric that heavy. But if I struggle finding poles for an acceptable price, I may rent a van and pay 21st century pict a visit...
Theoretical and academic (for now) question about wood
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Fifteen hundred quid would be a lot steep, but I'm not doing a liner (at the moment) and even if I buy 14oz duck canvas, it'd only come in at £400, and I'm not using fabric that heavy. But if I struggle finding poles for an acceptable price, I may rent a van and pay 21st century pict a visit...
A few reasons, (based on my research) first being insulation, the gap between the liner, which goes about a metre up the inner wall, can be stuffed with insulating material such as wool or hay to help keep the heat in if used in the very cold. Second is to help guard against water running down the poles, I think the other reason is for the aesthetics of it, the liner can be decorated, painted, appliqued etc. Don't see the point for my project, not even sure whether I'm going to do a floor to begin with, may well just chuck a couple of tarps on the deck and have done with it.
If its what i think it is then they are brilliant. Basically a curtain that runs around the inside of the tipi from about middle chest height down to the floor. Held in place with a Deutsch lace loop. This stopped diverted the draft/draw up above head height making it less smokey. Also made it warmer.
Wish i could fin some photos but it was a while back.
I setup three of these with the guy who owned the woodland. First night we hadn't had time to install it, next night we go it done and it made a good difference to the smoke level and the temperature.
Yeah I can see all those reasons for a more modern design. It's just that from your OP I thought you were trying to stay more traditional.
A photo would be good. But I think I've seen such a photo before. If I uderstand you correctly, it's really only a half liner?
Rubbish shot but you get the idea.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...vy1Uc_YDvTu0gXkloD4Bw&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&dur=395
I had to have a look on Google images about whether the liner was ancient or just an modern accessory I always just assumed it was but I had to check it out after Santaman mentioned it all the same and sure enough 6 or 7 rows down on goggle images there's an old picture of 4 Native American’s sitting in a Tipi and there it is a liner in the photo, Not sure if it’s common to all tipi’s.
Sorry Santaman I can’t upload the image from goggle but I just searched under Tipi liner.
Sorry Santaman I can’t upload the image from goggle but I just searched under Tipi liner.
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I'll try to google it later, thanks. But it begs the question, if there's a photo, just how authentic is it? I mean the photgraph is a relatively recent invention itself. And canvas was introduced to the Native Americans post Columbus.
Was the tipi pictured in the photo made of canvas? Or was it a traditional buffalo hide one? Likewise, what was said liner made from?
All this said though, I think I've seen pix of tipis being used in other cultures also. Siberia or east Asia? Not sure if those were real or fiction though, but if real, one tradition might vary from the other?
This the pic you mean?7.5 x 8.5", tipi interior, the view depicts the opening of a medicine pipe bundle. Contents of the bundle are revealed in the foreground. Note the painted designs on the canvas tipi liner in the background, similar to parfleche designs. With the photographer's blind stamp H. Pollard, Calgary
7.5 x 8.5", tipi interior, the view depicts the opening of a medicine pipe bundle. Contents of the bundle are revealed in the foreground. Note the painted designs on the canvas tipi liner in the background, similar to parfleche designs. With the photographer's blind stamp H. Pollard, Calgary
Thanks. That's my answer then. It's a posed tipi for attracting tourists. not the genuine traditional ones.
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
back to the original question
Alder would be fine but you'll only find it as a long thin pole in dense coppice
Elder no good never grows this shape and weak
Birch OK
Oak very heavy and you'll only find it as a long thin pole in dense coppice
Ash best bet, you often find it growing as dense seedlings forcing each other up so little taper. strong and flexible so can get away with quite thin, also rots less quickly than some eg sycamore, willow, birch.
Chestnut (Sweet and Horse) Sweet excellent if you live in SE and can source from coppice, these will last for years. Horse no.
Elm find it as a long thin pole
Willow OK but weak so need to use thicker, same for poplar
Rowan yes excellent if you find it as a long thin pole
Hazel unlikely to find it in dimensions you need.
Sycamore OK but not very strong need to use thicker
Alder would be fine but you'll only find it as a long thin pole in dense coppice
Elder no good never grows this shape and weak
Birch OK
Oak very heavy and you'll only find it as a long thin pole in dense coppice
Ash best bet, you often find it growing as dense seedlings forcing each other up so little taper. strong and flexible so can get away with quite thin, also rots less quickly than some eg sycamore, willow, birch.
Chestnut (Sweet and Horse) Sweet excellent if you live in SE and can source from coppice, these will last for years. Horse no.
Elm find it as a long thin pole
Willow OK but weak so need to use thicker, same for poplar
Rowan yes excellent if you find it as a long thin pole
Hazel unlikely to find it in dimensions you need.
Sycamore OK but not very strong need to use thicker
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
tipi poles dont work if they are jointed in the middle. There is too much twisting on the poles, and the joint would be on where the wind hits. Lavvus are a stubbier central cone and dont have as much of a wind issue on the poles and can take jointed poles, but they dont work as well with a fire in them.
As well as insulation the liner causes an updraft that takes away smoke from the fire, one of the other functions is to capture water that runs down the poles, directing it to the outside, a tipi is just a tent without a liner. A tipi skin should sit 3" to 6" off the ground, without a liner they would be very uncomfortable, in areas with high rainfall an ozan is also a must, along with keeping your poles as short as possible, the longer they are the more rain will run into the tipi, we use rain caps but they are awkward to put up in windy conditions, also when erecting your tipi remember that it is supposed to be egg shaped not round, we've been running a tipi campsite for several years and through trial and error have managed to sort out a few wrinkles.
And yet native tipis used poles 20 feet or longer. Agreed on most of your other points although I'm still not convinced the native ones had liners, I can see the advantages.
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
My partner lived in a tipi in wales, everything you have said is right. Without a liner the smoke flaps dont draw the smoke upward. Tipis arent really suited to rainy wales. The rain hats need skirts on, and even with ozans, liners and drip cords they make for a very close live-in relationship with the weather.
Longer poles certainly look more majestic, but our experience has shown that by reducing pole length we also reduced rain running down the poles. Having long poles probably had more to do with status than any practical use, the Indians used to drag the poles when on the move and this would constantly wear away the tips of the poles, for plains Indians, lodge poles were an expensive outlay. On the plains the rain usually came in sideways blown by the wind, turning the smoke flaps or closing them would keep out most of the rain, what rain did come in fell into the fire pit or ran down the poles, here in France and many parts of Europe the rain comes down like stair rods straight into the centre hole, that is why having shorter poles with a rain cap is essential, our poles only stick out by about 2ft-3ft. Cutting poles to exactly the same length ensures you get a natural slope for rain to run off.
TurboGirl
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I used ash for mine as its lightweight- its often available on disused train tracks and the area I found had been copiiced so it didn't kill the base plant. Be really picky about straightness or they 'roll' inwards and make puckers 
The liners were also called shadow cloths, preventing enemies being able to attack 'shadows' of the occupants at night when they were backlit but the main function is to form an exterior chimney for air draft. If you can get your hands on the Laubins great book, it has various patterns and super info
I downscaled the patterns to make one for festivals out of a tip find and took the recycling theme through so used engine parts (valves for the pegs, push rods to stitch the front etc). It did well for a few years before I retired it Heres a facebook album of its make.
I had a 2 part liner with groundsheet, worked a beaut- I had it in the woods a few times over winter but the fabric was awful noisy and lost heat very quickly when the calor stove went out
One of the main problems I found was getting all that fabric under the machine to seam it... otherwise its good fun, make sure you post us a thread of your make so we can cheer you both along!!
PS My liner attached to a rope around the poles, if you put a llittle stick on the inside of the pole underneath it, the water tends to wick down that rather than drip. My main rain malfunction was the door facings made 2 drips but I used to pull back the groundsheet and it'd soak away anyhow
I'd avoid sectioning the poles because you'll affect the tipis strendgth- I erected and slept in mine in a field with 70mph wind and horizontal rain once and the bowing of the upwind braced back poles was frankly scary! They make the point in the Laubins book of avoiding conductors so avoid metals, they had lots of lightning deaths when they moved over to western supplied poles apparently.
The liners were also called shadow cloths, preventing enemies being able to attack 'shadows' of the occupants at night when they were backlit but the main function is to form an exterior chimney for air draft. If you can get your hands on the Laubins great book, it has various patterns and super info
I downscaled the patterns to make one for festivals out of a tip find and took the recycling theme through so used engine parts (valves for the pegs, push rods to stitch the front etc). It did well for a few years before I retired it
Heres a facebook album of its make.
I had a 2 part liner with groundsheet, worked a beaut- I had it in the woods a few times over winter but the fabric was awful noisy and lost heat very quickly when the calor stove went out
One of the main problems I found was getting all that fabric under the machine to seam it... otherwise its good fun, make sure you post us a thread of your make so we can cheer you both along!!
PS My liner attached to a rope around the poles, if you put a llittle stick on the inside of the pole underneath it, the water tends to wick down that rather than drip. My main rain malfunction was the door facings made 2 drips but I used to pull back the groundsheet and it'd soak away anyhow
I'd avoid sectioning the poles because you'll affect the tipis strendgth- I erected and slept in mine in a field with 70mph wind and horizontal rain once and the bowing of the upwind braced back poles was frankly scary! They make the point in the Laubins book of avoiding conductors so avoid metals, they had lots of lightning deaths when they moved over to western supplied poles apparently.
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Sorry Robin Wood just to go back to the originality of liner in the photo for a moment.
By the way Robin I'm with you on this one Ash.
I cant see just because the photo was staged doesn't mean the liner isn’t any more or less genuine than any of the other props in the photo, The idea photographers would invented the liner just as backdrop, and then for it to become a standard in every modern tipi would seems unlikely to me.
Wikipedia show the interior of a Crow Lodge with liner from 1907 in the structure chapter.
Quote Wikipedia
""Old style traditional linings were hides, blankets, and rectangular pieces of cloth hanging about four to five feet above the ground tied to the poles or a rope.""
By the way Robin I'm with you on this one Ash.
I cant see just because the photo was staged doesn't mean the liner isn’t any more or less genuine than any of the other props in the photo, The idea photographers would invented the liner just as backdrop, and then for it to become a standard in every modern tipi would seems unlikely to me.
Wikipedia show the interior of a Crow Lodge with liner from 1907 in the structure chapter.
Quote Wikipedia
""Old style traditional linings were hides, blankets, and rectangular pieces of cloth hanging about four to five feet above the ground tied to the poles or a rope.""
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Not saying the "photo" was staged. But be 1917 the entire lifestyle was pretty much staged. Or at least all portrayals of it were staged to fit white people's stereotypes.
The remaining Indians not playing for the cameras had already had their native lifestyles stripped from them. The liner may even have been real. But the photo certainly isn't real evidence. Not for the liner or any other of the "props" as you call them. Especially as the tipi in said photo appears to be made of cloth rather than hides.
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