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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
The bear wasn't there just to have a bit of a jolly. A couple of guys went into a wood to go hunting - maybe for food, but most likely for sport. As a consequence of this a bear died. Personally I think that's a huge shame. Certainly not something to be celebrated. I'm not anti hunting, but I think think this is a tragic shame. Leave only footprints, not dead grizzlies.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Unless on the endangered list (and grizzlies aren't on that list in all areas) then they're as fair a game as the deer or elk. The reason the humans were there is irrelevant. The point is they WANTED to be there. Why is their right any less so than the grizzly? They wanted to be there, the grizzly wanted to be there, they had an argument and the humans won.

I'm not particularly excited that the bear died any more than you are; it's just that I'm not particularly upset over it either. And I do hope they got to keep the bear meat and bear hide.
 
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nuggets

Native
Jan 31, 2010
1,070
0
england
Killing things for fun just doesn't sit right with me, killing things for food is different. And I'm a raging hypocrite because I fish for sport, but I always catch and release unless it's good eating.

How do you feel about killing in Self defence ??? Coz if that grizz came at you from out of the woods you have only two choices which one would you choose ???
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
How do you feel about killing in Self defence ??? Coz if that grizz came at you from out of the woods you have only two choices which one would you choose ???

A bear died personally I find that sad, regardless of why it died. The hunters didnt have to be there, they were in the bears habitat.
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
...and if they'd have been walkers, campers or bushcrafters would they have been allowed to be there?

Doesn't this 'didn't have a right to be there' argument undermine the whole bushcrafting hobby or are people only allowed to do that in cities, towns and on farms?

A bear died personally I find that sad, regardless of why it died. The hunters didnt have to be there, they were in the bears habitat.
 

Prawnster

Full Member
Jun 24, 2008
806
0
St. Helens
The bear wasn't there just to have a bit of a jolly. A couple of guys went into a wood to go hunting - maybe for food, but most likely for sport. As a consequence of this a bear died. Personally I think that's a huge shame. Certainly not something to be celebrated. I'm not anti hunting, but I think think this is a tragic shame. Leave only footprints, not dead grizzlies.

Not sure I follow this.

By this logic people who venture into the woods should accept that this is solely the bears domain and if attacked by a bear should not defend themselves. Is that right?

I agree that it is a shame that this magnificent animal died, more so because it would appear that bear wasn't the intended quarry. But rather an animal than two blokes in my opinion.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Killing things for fun just doesn't sit right with me, killing things for food is different. And I'm a raging hypocrite because I fish for sport, but I always catch and release unless it's good eating.

I'm not fond of the idea of killing simply for the sake of killing. But I'll not go so far as to say that "food" is the only justifiable reason to kill. Leather, fur, self defense all come to mind. As does hunting (and killing) for the sake of teaching it to my Godson. Is it justifiable to exterminate rats, roaches, and other pests? If so do you only think it's a shame to kill certain species? After all, we kill bacteria by the millions with drugs; aren't they just living out their lives according to nature?

Although I no longer run a trap line (actually I never ran my own but rather I helped my cousin with his) I also consider trapping of fur bearers (at least those that can be sustainably harvested) for profit as a justifiable reason.

There is also more to what many people call "sport" hunting than a non hunter (notice I didn't say "anti" hunter) can comprehend. Unless you've grown up in a hunting society (and I'm including a society where "sport" hunting is an important rite of passage) or otherwise embraced it, then you may never truly understand that it's just as much a "need" as any other form of hunting. It's not truly just a sport; it's a deeply ingrained part of life itself.
 
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Feb 15, 2011
3,860
2
Elsewhere
There seems to be a little "ganging up" on mountainm here, just because he's sticking up for the grizz.
I'm not anti-hunting as such but I do have issues with house dwelling, supermarket shopping sports hunters going into 'wilderness' areas to take animal lives just for the pleasure of it....it ain't right to consider these ever shrinking places, already under great stress from human activity as a sport hunting play ground to be plundered for no other reason than personal gratification.
mountainm was suggesting that this was the bears territory & living space & that the hunters were 'visitors' who needn't have been there ( or who were there for the wrong reasons) & I agree with him on that.............would these guys have taken a different route or have had a different attitude if they had not been armed.?............we shall never know.
 

mountainm

Bushcrafter through and through
Jan 12, 2011
9,990
12
Selby
www.mikemountain.co.uk
frankly I'm amazed that on a forum where we practice trying to have as little impact as possible on the environment, that some folks take issue with me having sympathy for the bear.
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
Not exactly ganging up. Just questioning what has been said. So far it all seems to have been pretty polite and that is quite good going for these types of thread.

I'm genuinely curious to know what the basic premise of mountanm's argument is. Should all people stay out of grizzly territory or just hunters? The con arguments seem to be directed purely against hunters.

BTW, I didn't know the hunters in the picture were supermarket shopping sports hunters out just to take animal lives for the pleasure of it. It is good to know that. How did we find out? Is there a reference?

There seems to be a little "ganging up" on mountainm here, just because he's sticking up for the grizz.
I'm not anti-hunting as such but I do have issues with house dwelling, supermarket shopping sports hunters going into 'wilderness' areas to take animal lives just for the pleasure of it....it ain't right to consider these ever shrinking places, already under great stress from human activity as a sport hunting play ground to be plundered for no other reason than personal gratification.
mountainm was suggesting that this was the bears territory & living space & that the hunters were 'visitors' who needn't have been there ( or who were there for the wrong reasons) & I agree with him on that.............would these guys have taken a different route or have had a different attitude if they had not been armed.?............we shall never know.
 
Feb 15, 2011
3,860
2
Elsewhere
There is also more to what many people call "sport" hunting than a non hunter (notice I didn't say "anti" hunter) can comprehend. Unless you've grown up in a hunting society (and I'm including a society where "sport" hunting is an important rite of passage) or otherwise embraced it, then you may never truly understand that it's just as much a "need" as any other form of hunting.


Yes there is a problem for some that are not raised in a gun culture/ sport hunting ethos to understand the motivations of those that are...................
It would be interesting to know if the demand for hunting permits & tabs is increasing, stable or decreasing in the USA.
 

Huon

Native
May 12, 2004
1,327
1
Spain
I've no problem with sympathy for the bear. I have a fair amount myself. I'd also feel a lot of sympathy for the hunters if they got killed by the bear.

There is not a lot of real information about the incident itself in this thread. I've only seen the photos and the text put up here. It strikes me that this is not really a lot on which to base opinions either way.

frankly I'm amazed that on a forum where we practice trying to have as little impact as possible on the environment, that some folks take issue with me having sympathy for the bear.
 
Feb 15, 2011
3,860
2
Elsewhere
BTW, I didn't know the hunters in the picture were supermarket shopping sports hunters out just to take animal lives for the pleasure of it. It is good to know that. How did we find out? Is there a reference?



Well the OP did say they were elk hunters which is a sport & I bet that's a woolmart coat...........


Incidently I don't have any smiliies on go advanced, do you lot still have them or I have I been banned from using them .( this site was down earlier for maintanance )
 
Feb 15, 2011
3,860
2
Elsewhere
He is a big boy he does not need you to hold his hand ,If he puts his opinions out there he must be prepared to be criticised


Jason




No, you misunderstood my intentions, I wasn't holding his hand & surely you mean challenged rather than criticised, this is after all a friendly open discussion forum.
 

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