Complete budget kit.

[Bob Hurley]

Top class Bob :biggthump Is it me or is your rifle huge? :?:

I'm 5'11", 165# if that helps. It's a musket, a copy of a c1750 French fusil de traite, or trade gun - it doesn't weigh that much, but the 42" barrel and full stock makes it look large I guess. It's a lot nicer to carry than a Brown Bess.

I didn't intend to hijack the thread, only to show that you can be very comfortable with very little kit and absolutely no gadgets. You can do the same with modern kit, if you make a few small sacrifices - I accept that I'm going to get wet now and then, but I can always build a fire and dry out. Now, getting that fire going with flint and steel after everything in the woods is soaked can be a challenge, but that's part of the fun. If you look through the historic journals, you'll find there were plenty of times that they simply couldn't get a fire started, so I don't feel so bad when I have trouble.

 

[sargey]

superb stuff bob. :biggthump

I couldn't take my girlfriend out to dinner in my bushcrafty clothes. I'd get cold, they'd rip etc etc.

i don't know if i want to know where you take your girlfriend for dinner ):

the zero kit ideal is a nice one, but for so many it isn't practical, destruction of habitat and all that, or particularly safe. we don't want any bushcrafters ending up on the news oetzi style!

cheers, and.

 

[Nightfall]

Great picture Bob. :super:

 

[mercury]

Bob , are you the last of the mohicans , or are there others ?

(Its the eyes that get me ) :yikes:

 

[arctic hobo]

superb stuff bob. :biggthump



i don't know if i want to know where you take your girlfriend for dinner ):

the zero kit ideal is a nice one, but for so many it isn't practical, destruction of habitat and all that, or particularly safe. we don't want any bushcrafters ending up on the news oetzi style!

cheers, and.

Oi! :rolmao:

 

[MalIrl]

Nice one, Rhapsody! Another excellent post on this site that bears a fair bit of thinking about. I agree with others on this thread that you need to start with more kit while you're learning. In any case, most outdoor kit I get is with a view to hunting, Scouting, and then bushcraft, in that order (so I guess I'm a hobby bushcrafter :shock: !). Anyway, on to the budget kit:
Knife: I'd suggest starting with an Opinel No. 7, cheap as chips, easy to sharpen, blade locks nicely, better than locking SAKs. Costs about 6 euro here. Learn to use and care for it, then move on to fixed blades.
Chopping: First I was going to say it's the one thing I'd spend good money on, but then remembered that I used a cheapo hatchet to practise my sharpening skills (especially removing nicks) before attempting same on my Gransfors! Get a cheap one, get to know how to care for it, then trade up if you want to and you'll really appreciate a proper axe!
Sleeping bag: OK, so if you're not going to be out in January or camping at 200m plus, then what's wrong with a three season from Millets in the Jan sales? Most of Southern Britain is a lot warmer than the West of Ireland, and a two season is fine here through the Summer.
Shelter: 3mx2m green tarps with grommits for about 5 euro from Lidl.
Fire: Firesteels aren't that expensive, but as I struggle with them, I'd also bring some matches!
Cooking: Well, I use a Trangia (family sized) so I can't comment. The old coffee tins seem to make sense....
Water: I'm frequent user of the old coke bottle, myself!
Utensils: Hey, how much quality do you need? Re-cycle the plastic ones from fast-food joints.
Keep an eye on the Lidl and Aldi deals (I'm assuming you have these!) Usually the same stuff comes around periodically. In the last year I have got: 3mx2m tarps with grommits, 5euro; folding saw, 4 euro, one year old, still doing the biz (I use it a lot for hedging, so it gets USED!); Merino wool jumpers, ten euro, toasty, and excellent as a mid layer; first aid kits, 10.99 euro, to German DIN-13164 standard, it has almost everything; aluminium walking poles, 10 euro, can't see any difference between these and the ones in outdoor shops for 4 times the price. Most of the deals on outdoor stuff were around April last year, so start checking the websites before then.

 

[Minotaur]

Your kit is your kit.

My kit choices have 23 years of bad decisions behind them.

The cubs and scouts taught me very early on that being cold for long periods is not good. I know now that you need twice as much under you as over you. I have a £20 mummy bag(Argos, I think), a survival bag, and a sleeping mat(Aldi or Lidi is going to do them for 2.99), it worked and still works. If I reallly wanted to spend money I would go looking for one of the army sleeping systems, surplus. A £200 sleeping bag does not make you warm, that is down to where you pitch your tent or shelter.

I was against goretex from the begining and was provided right when everyone in an eight man party walked off a hill in Ireland with exposire. I knew my £30 waterproof worked, and so did their £200 Goretex Jackets but everyone still got cold and wet to the point of indangering their health. Read some of the lightweight hiking stuff, they do not use the heavy weight stuff at all but use a layered system that has been around a long time. They have gone back to waterproofs but use wicking shirts.

Buy cheep, and get out there. Doing it, will teach you what works and good instructors will teach you to learn from their mistakes. We have all been cold or hungry at one point get us to explain what went wrong. Ask anyone who camps with their wife or partner? You never have the same temp or nights sleep. People are differnet, so find what works for you.

Regards,

Ps Just as a point I am still learning because to use a US Marine expresion(that is where I stole it from), when the corps wants you to be uncomftable they will arrange it. Nature has a habit of not doing what you want, just ask Micheal Fish.

PPS Can we not knock the best entertainment going on camp sites. I can sit for hours watching the right type of person put up a new tent. Not because I am that sad but because it takes them that long. Lots of shouting at family for no reason.

 

[arctic hobo]

Minotaur: I agree with you that people can spend too much on gear, and also that expensive gear will not make you safer necessarily, but I wouldn't take it too far. The difference between a 20 pound Argos sleeping bag and a 150 pound say, Nanok bag is huge - you would simply not survive in the former in the arctic or on an exposed slope. There is a degree of it's being down to where you pitch, but if you're miles from anywhere particularly favourable, what can you do?
People spend money to get more for their weight. Even were an Argos bag equal in insulation (ignoring all the nasty bits like glue spots and cheap materials) it would be almost by definition heavier than a more expensive bag. Plus sleeping in a survival bag is apt to make you very wet indeed from condensation - I have done this many times (although not from choice). That's why bivi bags are so expensive - they have to be breathable.
As regards Gore-tex, I really don't think one 8 man party in difficulty disproves it's benefits. Gore-tex is not designed to be more waterproof, instead it is slightly less, but the person wearing it is drier as all their sweat is breathed out through the fabric instead of staying on them, which could make them lethally cold. People in Gore-tex are actually at an advantage - anybody can catch hypothermia or suffer exposure, no matter what they're wearing. Especially in a wet country like Ireland on the side of a hill.
I don't mean to get at you, but I can't go by and not highlight what you have said, as people reading it and doing it could end up doing some very irresponsible things, that would quickly make them look like this >>>
Cheers,
Chris

 

[Minotaur]

No problem Chris.

What I was trying to get at, was get out there. I am sure we could have conversations about our kit and why different items are in there forever but most of the reasons will come down to personnel experince. I know a lot of my kit choices come down to budget. Kit prices for the arctic would not be budget but this is down to the more extreme you go, the more it costs or you make your own. I went army sleeping system about 3 years ago and have done it wrong, so it will be back to the drawing board. Everyone is different and the sleeping bag is just too warm for me, under normal conditions. Have managed to avoid extreme for a while. Spent £150 on the lot and my list of moans is just getting longer and longer.

"Plus sleeping in a survival bag is apt to make you very wet indeed from condensation - I have done this many times (although not from choice)."

Me too, I even once teamed it with a foil Survivial bag, very bad idea.

Ref: Goretex but what about water logging? I resisted and resisted and then it stopped working. Go me, Go me, Go me. Yes, there is a smug grin envolded in this. The lightweights have gone back to the layered system but use wicking shirts as their base layer. They wick the sweat away from the skin but because of their waterproof outer layer they do not end up carrying the storm with them. I am going to start using this system because it is not much of a change, plus I could only find Americans using it so wonder how it will stand up to English roll of the dice weather. What I was trying to say about my experince in Ireland was that if anything the expensive kit worked against them, because their jackets almost doubled in weight, if not more. It stands as my scareist experince todate, because a group of experinced hikers and getting of the hill top was the only thing that saved us. 8 people all with exposire and not thinking straight was a bad combination.

 

[Toddy]

I worked three weeks straight in a never ending downpour one March in the Lake District. We were fieldwalking the 1500m line looking for settlement evidences. *Nothing* keeps you dry in that. All you can hope for is that constant movement builds up enough warmth in the damp and something to block out the wind gets you through the day.
Goretex dies a death in it. Solid waterproofs (hey, students live broke and those are cheap) work, but when there's a lot of physical effort (try climbing barbed wire fences stretched across a roaring beck carrying surveying equipment) you cook inside. Wool gets soaked but stays warm and breaths; cotton is miserable, it's a cold wet clammy thing chilling your skin. Linen or silk underneath is excellent, but expensive. Cheap thermals work.
We went back a month later to do some excavation and those who had done the fieldwalking were the only ones who were comfortable. Layers of natural or wicking fibres with a wind proof outer....wool socks and gaiters or overtrousers. Ventile as an outer is good, as is the wax jacket (if it's got a decent set of hood fastenings and cuffs) If your wet, you're wet, keep the layer next to your skin warm and wind free, keep moving and you'll survive.
I still lost a stone and a half in three weeks...and I could afford good kit.

I'm probably going to get screamed at wth comments about being irresponsible, but that's life. We needed to do the work, just as Minotaurs friends, even though well prepared, got into difficulties on what should have been a good days' walking. Underestimating the weather here is just foolish.

Finally, having lost so much weight both my Goretex and my Lowe Alpine triple point ceramic jackets actually worked much better. They fitted comfortably before but afterwards they were at least two sizes too big and worked much better. If you are using breathables, buy them roomy, you can always tie cuffs and pull drawcords in. In snow (yup, I've even opened up an excavation in a blizzard!) they are very good though, they don't seem to get saturated the same way as they do in incessant rain.

Now then, what did the squaddies wear when yomping over the Falklands?....the weather there's supposed to be like home....and more importantly, did the clothing work for or against them? Enquiring minds would like to know 'cos army stuff is a damn sight cheaper than 'fashionable' hill walking kit even if you do end up looking like a refugee from a Millenium survival cult

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[spamel]

During the Falklands conflict, people were buying their own kit because issue was not up to the job, boots were a favourite with people as the DMS boot was still on issue. This is an ankle high boot, which was worn with puttees, a sort of gaiter that sat at the top of the boot. As you can imagine, the people still using these suffered from immersion or trench foot. The high leg boots worn by the Argentinians were far superior and were taken from the battlefield to be used by the british troops. Incidentally, if you go up on the battlefield tours in the Falklands today, you will see lots of white plimsols all over the place. This is because the conscripts had their boots taken off of them at night to stop them deserting!!

Also, people supplied their own bergens, the issue Large Pack was anything but!! Ask anyone who has used one, it is impossible to fit all the kit you need into a Larry. Your sleeping bag was strapped to the outside for starters!!

Windproof smocks were used by the toms on the ground, this jacket is far superior to the ripstop jacket now on issue, even with it's button on hood. My smock is a treasured item. windproof trousers are also outstanding, this kit dries out fast enough, and really does what it says on the tin. Woollen socks, HD jumpers and berets were also used extensively. Although HD jumpers are still on issue, they are not really used that much now. I think this is a shame as it is an excellent jumper, and when used with a norwegian shirt, you will never get cold!

Spamel

 

[Toddy]

..... Woollen socks, HD jumpers and berets were also used extensively......
Spamel

Ooops, forgot , a woolly bunnet is a *must*, we even slept in them to try to keep warm at night too.
Thanks for the info Spamel; so windproof smocks and trews.....good things, yeh? But not the newer ripstop ones.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[spamel]

The new ripstop jackets tend to wear out at the collar and cuffs rather quickly. They are OK for in camp wear, but when I go on exercise or deployment, I wear the windproof. I even went on exercise in a tracked vehicle this winter, and it got that cold that the diesel in our jerry cans started to wax. I was warm enough with my windproof smock and a t-shirt!!

Spamel

 

[Minotaur]

From what I understand what the lightweights have done is what you said but with modern materials. They use modern wicking materials with a windproof/waterproof layer. What must happen is sweat gets stuck away from the body and runs down so you stay warm and dry. What that means is the expensive item does the Goretex job and the cheep item keeps you dry, but you still end up paying less for the lot, than a Goretex jacket costs.

Never been a big fan of army kit but was sold on the sleep system(should have gone Swedish). The one advantage it does have is there are a lot of reviews or fixes out there because so many people use it. I am being slowly pulled back towards webbing, it is medicial kit, everything is just so handy.

Never heard about the boots in the Falklands before. Makes sense that our kit has trouble in the desert but on the Falklands, weird, but could be strangely true. The only thing I heard about kit in the Falklands was about the FN Fal getting picked up to replace SLR's.

 

[arctic hobo]

From what I understand what the lightweights have done is what you said but with modern materials.

You're forgetting that in this modern world of making a lot of money, which granted is no new idea but now markets are huge and controlled by fewer people, who have more technology to cut corners off with, weight targets are mostly reached by skimping. The lightweights have got decent kit and made it very thin (so it wears out in record time), and made it short (so it doesn't keep you dry/warm), and it's only when it comes to the actual materials is there any decent progression. The worst of it is they hide away the skimps, so you only realise when it's too late.

 

[Goose]

The kit back then was totally different, the DMS boot was an ankle boot with no stiched in tongue and puttees aren't gaiters they are a cloth wrapping around the ankle as a support! Not very good in the swamp that I beleive the falklands is. I got issued my kit in '84 and the last DMS were getting issued at the time, They had run out of 8s so i got two pairs of high legs instead of one of each type, different sizes as I found out later but never mind!
I think the kit has really improved since then, not sure if storemen have though.

 

[Minotaur]

That is the thing that worries me, Arctic Hobo. From what I can gather, they use the system I have always used, layering, but they do it for weight. A lot of the gear they use is not made with lightweights in mind but the quality is still an issue. They use race gear, which is not designed to stand up to hard use, but some of the less extreme people use modern outdoor shirts which have the same properties. I cannot find a good English Lightweight site to read what they do, but what the Americans etc seem to have done is interesting. You have to wonder if they get the same sort of yoyo weather as us.

They actually have a very Bushcraft motive behind what they have done, the point of going lightweight is to cover more ground, in more comfort. To do this they make every single item contuinally earn it's keep, but also look at things in a different way. They aim to take the minium with them to improve the experience, and enjoy being out there rather than moaning about the weight of the ruc.

Might try it for a while to see what happens but keep my windproof fleece and army jumper in the ruc, in case it all goes wrong.

Hi Goose,

Always thought of the Falklands as Highland Scotland but colder. It is almost impossible to belive British army kit would have trouble in the wet and the cold. Maybe they should send the buyers to test it in the Brecons or Ullenpool for a few months, might get it right then. I do not think anything has changed because they where still having boot problems in Iraq.

 

[brian6244]

Okay I'll take a shot at this one:

Knife - Frosts Mora ($8)

Chopping - Batton for Frosts Mora (Free)

Sleeping Bag - None because you dress appropriatly and sleep by the fire. (Free)

Rucksack - None because with this kit you don't need one to carry everything (Free)

Shelter - Storm Shelter Instant Pocket Tent or Large Sheet of Painters Plastic ($5)

Cooking - Metal Camp Cup ($5)

Fire - Mini Bic Lighter

Water - Metal Camp Cup (again) (Free)

Eating utensils - Carve a spoon and a pair of chopstix

Total Cost $18

After reading this I can't help but think to myself, "hey, why the heck have I been spending so much on gear????"

 

[spamel]

The SLR was the same rifle as the FN FAL, only single shot. The FN FAL had an automatic setting, but with a 20 round magazine and elephant gun recoil, you'd have to be mad to use it!!

I have a pair of DMS boots still, they are my Best Parade Boots. How anyone walked around on the Falklands with these is beyond me. I'm glad parades don't last more than a couple of hours these days, as they are howling, I'd rather wear my ammo boots!!

 

[Goose]

The FN was a little shorter and ligter than the SLR too The british decided we were all marksmen so lengthened the barrel and removed the auto function when it was remade for british army issue. I think the aregntinian version had a folding stock too.
I remember the lads with DMS boots used to rave how easy they were to run in but I got on fine with CBHs,I dont think I would attempt to run in my ammo boots though, I used to have enough trouble walking on tarmac with them! And polished corridors at gib!

A bit off topic sorry! But i suppose British Army and budget kit go together.