Futurproofing your house

[Toddy]

How big is your battery storage ? because having read preppers sites for several years, and seen them go through one iteration after another after another, and each more expensive than the last, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I don't want that. I don't want to 'offgas' old ones, or have to have an outhouse dedicated to batteries, and fret over their temperature, etc., I don't want them in the house.

At present I just flick a switch. It's neither fuss nor bother. A back up of a decent solar panel to do batteries, fine, that I will happily do, but tbh until there's something more appealling than the bother of heatpump installation, or electricity becomes comparative price wise, I'm like 80% of the population and still use gas.
I'd much prefer to be all electric. My husband is firmly of the opinion that gas ought to be pumped to the electricity generating stations and used there.
Might happen yet; who knows.

Woodburning stoves are more of an issue around here. Their particulate matter is incredibly polluting, and their owners deplete the woods with their constant need to feed them.

 

[ManFriday4]

I have a 12v 300w immersion long heater not installed (in soreage). The immersion entry point is at the top of the tank so I wouldn't have to drain it completely to install.

@Toddy we live on the grid, but can easily live isolated from the grid with some minor adjustments. We wanted to be able to have hot water even if we don't have central heating. Having lived off grid, the transition was easy but we wanted options.

 

[Toddy]

I have a 12v 300w immersion long heater not installed (in soreage). The immersion entry point is at the top of the tank so I wouldn't have to drain it completely to install.

So, it does need electricity.

We finally got rid of the enormous water tank in the loft this time last year. We've lived in this house for over thirty years and that blasted tank totally impeded movement around the loft. It was perched right in front of the loft hatch in the middle of the attic. I've suddenly gained an entire room

 

[ManFriday4]

How big is your battery storage ? because having read preppers sites for several years, and seen them go through one iteration after another after another, and each more expensive than the last, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I don't want that. I don't want to 'offgas' old ones, or have to have an outhouse dedicated to batteries, and fret over their temperature, etc., I don't want them in the house.

At present I just flick a switch. It's neither fuss nor bother. A back up of a decent solar panel to do batteries, fine, that I will happily do, but tbh until there's something more appealling than the bother of heatpump installation, or electricity becomes comparative price wise, I'm like 80% of the population and still use gas.
I'd much prefer to be all electric. My husband is firmly of the opinion that gas ought to be pumped to the electricity generating stations and used there.
Might happen yet; who knows.

Woodburning stoves are more of an issue around here. Their particulate matter is incredibly polluting, and their owners deplete the woods with their constant need to feed them.

I have 500Ah (Amp hours) of old Trojan traction cells. These are 2nd hand VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) batteries from a golf buggy, well 3 actually. They cost £80 each and were drop tested and tested for retaining charge. They are heavy!! I have had the for 5 years and they currently run a timed irrigation system & some lights in a shed. The solar comfortably keeps them at full capacity.

In my experience with batteries you get what you pay for.

Starter batteries last 5-7 years but do not deep cycle - rated in CCA- Cold Cranking Amps - to deliver massive amps for a few second to cold crank an engine.

Leisure batteries last about 3-5 years and can partially deep cycle but not too often.

Traction cells are designed for golf buggies, they can deep cycle & deliver high amp traction for about 5seconds to overcome inertia. Life 3- 20 years

Proper deep cycle batteries are massive, are usually between 300-1000 Ah usually 1.2V per cell therefore requiring 10 to be connected in series to make 12v. These can be bought second hand from Navy scrapyard and off oil platforms. Life 5-50+ years

All battery systems need management of charge and systems to stop over discharge.

Batteries vent Hydrogen and this requires ventilation & lighting and electrical systems in the battery room need to be ignition protected.

Anyone who rates batteries in kWh is trying to sell you something that you probably don't need. Batteries are rated based on the type, chemistry and what they are designed for. Traction cells work well with inverters because the loads are similar. Leisure batteries are for caravans- a few lights and a water pump.

 

[Toddy]

I firmly suspect that most would not be bothered trying to deal with batteries like that.

I think Annie (@Woody girl )'s idea about the Jackery is sound and feasible though.

 

[ManFriday4]

I have 500Ah (Amp hours) of old Trojan traction cells. These are 2nd hand VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) batteries from a golf buggy, well 3 actually. They cost £80 each and were drop tested and tested for retaining charge. They are heavy!! I have had the for 5 years and they currently run a timed irrigation system & some lights in a shed. The solar comfortably keeps them at full capacity.

In my experience with batteries you get what you pay for.

Starter batteries last 5-7 years but do not deep cycle - rated in CCA- Cold Cranking Amps - to deliver massive amps for a few second to cold crank an engine.

Leisure batteries last about 3-5 years and can partially deep cycle but not too often.

Traction cells are designed for golf buggies, they can deep cycle & deliver high amp traction for about 5seconds to overcome inertia. Life 3- 20 years

Proper deep cycle batteries are massive, are usually between 300-1000 Ah usually 1.2V per cell therefore requiring 10 to be connected in series to make 12v. These can be bought second hand from Navy scrapyard and off oil platforms. Life 5-50+ years

All battery systems need management of charge and systems to stop over discharge.

Batteries vent Hydrogen and this requires ventilation & lighting and electrical systems in the battery room need to be ignition protected.

Anyone who rates batteries in kWh is trying to sell you something that you probably don't need. Batteries are rated based on the type, chemistry and what they are designed for. Traction cells work well with inverters because the loads are similar. Leisure batteries are for caravans- a few lights and a water pump.

Mine are in a brick shed attached (the old outside toilet) to the back of the terraced house. They are about the size of a chest of drawers in total together.

 

[ManFriday4]

I firmly suspect that most would not be bothered trying to deal with batteries like that.

I think Annie (@Woody girl )'s idea about the Jackery is sound and feasible though.

These are a tidy system

 

[ManFriday4]

Oh no, not again.!
This is silly. Stop being such a bully!

I have a similar thing with my air source heat pump, and it is heated once a week ,just as he says, whether I have the water heating turned on or not, to stop legionars whether I want it to do so, or not. It's on a timer, set by the technicians that installed it, its a legal safety feature.
so he is correct.

It's OK, I found the ignore button.
I'm sure if we were real identities on here that sort of thing wouldn't happen.

 

[ManFriday4]

Other power.com is a good source of information on renewable & off grid.

 

[ManFriday4]

Oh no, not again.!
This is silly. Stop being such a bully!

I have a similar thing with my air source heat pump, and it is heated once a week ,just as he says, whether I have the water heating turned on or not, to stop legionars whether I want it to do so, or not. It's on a timer, set by the technicians that installed it, its a legal safety feature.
so he is correct.

It's OK, I found the ignore button.
I'm sure if we were real identities on here that sort of thing wouldn't happen

 

[Toddy]

Hmmm.
This forum is now over twenty years old. Many of the members actually meet up. They are also familiar across other like minded forums. From some, like the late much lamented BB to Song of the Paddle, from ROF to OoT, Over the Gate, etc., there have been dozens over the years come and gone, and some still happily chatter along.
The Moots and the Wilderness Gathering have been going on for years too. Again, many folks actually meet up, year after year, sit and blether, get to know each other. They barter, sell, exchange, gift, etc.,
Real names or forum names become one in a way.
I am Toddy, I am MaC, pleased to meet you.

Though if someone phones my house and asks for Toddy, they'll most likely be told, "He's no' here", because my bother is the other Toddy too

 

[Paul_B]

Anyhoo ..... a bit off topic but does anyone know which mineral wool insulation has the longest life expectancy and why.
I'm just in the beginning phase of looking in to cold roof insulating my loft area.
Rockwool seems to be one touted as being the best but I see see tons of other manufacturers who all claim to be equally awesome?

Back in the day we used two bonded fibre slabs. Bonded mineral wool such as Rockwool brand and bonded glass fibre slabs such as Superglass and Knauf. The latter is now called bonded glass mineral fibre and direct alternative to std mineral wool.

We used it for acoustics and the glass fibre version was considered better because for a lighter density than rockwool it offered the same acoustic absorption. Iirc a nominally 32kg/m3 bonded glass fibre was equivalent to 60kg/m3 rockwool. That was for acoustics in power stations and thermally I'm not as confident on , my information.

I think a higher density rockwool or a lower density glass mineral wool is equivalent for both acoustics and thermal performance. Brands I would say Rockwool is good for mineral wool. For glass mineral wool I'd recommend Knauf. They use a more environmental binder and are a better manufacturer imho. Their bonded glass mineral wool slabs are actually nice to use both in feel and when cutting. Their slabs are uniform.

Superglass is made in Scotland but their bonded glass mineral wool slabs have poorly mixed binder and fibre such that you get layers of uncured binder or cured lumps of binder within the layers. That's not an issue for thermal insulation use but acoustic applications we prefer not to use. Also, thickness can vary across the width of the slab.

Note the above comments are based on slabs. They are probably applicable to rolls of mineral wool too which is basically a more flexible format of mineral wool fibre in a binder mix. Brand quality comments will apply I reckon.

There are other types or classes of thermal insulation too. I don't know about them.

 

[Paul_B]

If you're talking of passive fire protection you'd choose 100kg/m3 bonded mineral fibre slabs with an ablative coating at least 1 or 2mm thick. I once gave tech support to contractors and architects on passive fire protection products. Rockwool or glass wool does not offer much in a fire certainly not enough difference between glass and mineral fibre options in wool based thermal insulation. A fire would just blow through it. If you need fire protection then check out kingspan.

We bought 200mm thick top up, rolls in Knauf product. Glass mineral wool. It was only to lay on top of the loft floor at both ends of the house over the lounge and the bedrooms (bungalow with rooms split into thirds of lounge/ dining room, kitchen/ bathroom/ study and bedrooms. There was insulation in the roof behind panels and under the loft floor. We added the 200mm with a double layer on half the two sections. So I think we have 270mm in the loft floor, 200/400mm on top of the loft floor in 2/3rds of the loft and a thin layer m of insulation in the roof space behind the panels. The top up insulation we put in over the bedrooms was enough to be very noticeable and allowed for us to turn off our heating in the winter about 9 to 10pm and still stay warm enough until 12pm indeed in the morning there is still some warmth such than our slow to heat radiators warm up enough within 30 minutes. The rads take twenty minutes to get warm. They're 1970s style, steel without fins. Big thermal mass I reckon.

One last point, if you're relying on fire protection of your roof thermal insulation you're in trouble. I'd hope to be out long before the fire hits the roof or I'd probably be dead by then. Better to have fire alarms and escape routes. Wide opening windows and even escape ladders by them if above jumping distance, on both sides of your property. Understand your options so you don't even have to think if a fire happens. Passive fire protection products are mostly commercial, industrial, etc use in big buildings not houses. Fire doors excepted of course and they're a fun thing to design. You have to get the fittings and fixtures right fire their rated performance. Screw up installation and forget the rating.

 

[TLM]

I much prefer slabs over rolls, more uniform and in most cases easier to handle.

The heavy mineral fiber insulation is OK for short time fire insulation. For heavier fires one needs the kind of materials used on oil boring rigs. Phenolic resin with reinforcing glass fiber or thick silicone casts but that is another game.

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

Fitted lots of rockwool slabs in our place, can't recall the thickness now.. and don't fancy dropping a couple ceilings to check, so you'll have to take my word on me being happy with it. Slabs are also nice because you can cut them with a saw easily enough, they have a little elasticity in them so that you can bend them slightly to fit them between joists, then they spring out and sit there nice and snug. In this recent heat, we have one room which has a flat roof directly above it which gets a good old baking all blooming day and only one small opening window (no throughflow of air), fitted insulation under that flat roof and that room is very comfortable to sit in temperature wise.

 

[TeeDee]

I work for a renewable company - ASHP's, GSHP's , Solar Thermal , UFH - the comment about purge cycles of legionella being automatic is correct on latest systems

 

[ManFriday4]

I could give you loads but you clearly know it all.

Clearly here to just cause trouble as well. Ignore list….

@Toddy. You seem to be at pains tell me how this group works, how long it's been here and what a hypocrite I am.

I would dearly love to be completely off the grid on ny own land, with enough land to be self sufficient. I don't even own my own home, I'm lucky I have a life tenancy & the landlord has allowed me to install stuff to make us more energy efficient.
We would have wood fired hot water, but we are in a low emissions zone so we have gas central heating.

I'm sorry if I actually know what I'm doing when it comes to plumbing in a hot water system & I'm sorry if some people here can't handle not being the teacher. I'm sorry if I've been doing various bushcraft/offgrid things and thought it might be nice to share some of my experience/skills here, but I'm starting to wonder why so many people here just seem to want to annoy the FNG?

 

[Scottieoutdoors]

@ManFriday4
Stop baiting or being baited. You're not sorry in the slightest, perhaps nor should you be.

Before you said your very valid (as backed up by @Woody girl and confirmed by @TeeDee) comment regarding your system heating itself above 60 for an hour, I too, with minimal plumbing experience, other than some diy unit installation + maintenance and learned knowledge of my own system, thought that sounds like a risk of legionnaires... So maybe it was a natural direction for the topic to go.

I think everyone needs to take a breath.

 

[Toddy]

@Toddy. You seem to be at pains tell me how this group works, how long it's been here and what a hypocrite I am.

I would dearly love to be completely off the grid on ny own land, with enough land to be self sufficient. I don't even own my own home, I'm lucky I have a life tenancy & the landlord has allowed me to install stuff to make us more energy efficient.
We would have wood fired hot water, but we are in a low emissions zone so we have gas central heating.

I'm sorry if I actually know what I'm doing when it comes to plumbing in a hot water system & I'm sorry if some people here can't handle not being the teacher. I'm sorry if I've been doing various bushcraft/offgrid things and thought it might be nice to share some of my experience/skills here, but I'm starting to wonder why so many people here just seem to want to annoy the FNG?No I

No, I didn't.
I simply replied to your comment about us using 'real names'.
We often actually do know each other by both 'names'. In due course presumably you too.

It's a conversation; that means that everybody is allowed to have an opinion. Whether they all agree or not is most unlikely

Teaching is a good thing, so is enthusiasm, but on the whole we're not really into plumbing. Not saying it doesn't crop up, because we all have plumbing, but it's more along the lines of the efficacy and hygiene of the tree bog, iimmc ?

Honestly, I think with the sheer inefficiency of the average British house, that trying to make everyone comply with someone else's version of green is on a sticky wicket.
I think that given the right circumstances (their own land/property, and room around them) and the finances available, that most would prefer a fair degree of self sufficiency, but very few are au fait with the technology involved in doing so, and it's expensive to get it wrong.

I think things are changing, that new housebuilds will be better insulated, more energy efficient, with no new gas boilers, etc., but we're a long way away from that being the norm.

M

 

[Toddy]

I work for a renewable company - ASHP's, GSHP's , Solar Thermal , UFH - the comment about purge cycles of legionella being automatic is correct on latest systems

What happens to the system if the power goes out and the purge cycle hasn't been done?
Will it re-start normally or does it need some control over ride ?
I was thinking about places like the Shetlands where folks were without power for a week last December after the dreadful storms hit.
Folks with meters had issues with smart meters....did we not have a conversation on here about those recently ?

Just curious.

M