Bushcraft Boat? Ref: Rivers TV Show

[Minotaur]

I was watching the new BBC thing Rivers, and in all the programs he seems to change boats a lot. Also he seem to go, too dangerous to use my canoes now in every program.

So this got me thinking, if I was building a Canadian Canoe I would be tempted to make locking bulkheads, so you could moor up to go into towns/villages, without having to take everything with you.

If you can sea canoe, how can any river get too dangerous, short of the obvous waterfall?

Also they talked about almost all British/Welsh rivers being unnavigable for legal reasons, never heard of this before. I have heard of not getting out of the boat just anywhere, because the land is private, is that what they are going on about? People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?

Anyway, the main question what would the idea one/two person craft actually be? I get that a canadian canoe is going to be high on the list, but would something more like the three men in a boat style, or more of a sailing dingy be better. Would a catamaran style canoe be better, because of white water risks, and general stability?

Bit of a duff program to be honest but so far the scenery is amazing, and makes you want to go buy one, and get out there using it.

 

[Chinkapin]

Consider an "expedition" type kayak. Kleber http://www.klepper.com/en/index.php or Folboat. http://www.folbot.com/kayaks/greenland_ii/ These are both Mercedes class kayaks.

I've had a good whitewater, fiberglass canoe and I've had a Foldboat "greenland" before they were called greenlands. Speed, handling, ease of carry, stability, all go to the kayak. Cost goes to the canoe. comfort is a very personal thing. some prefer to sit higher up in a more normal position, some prefer the lower, legs straight out in front of the kayak. Cargo capacity goes to the canoe but the capacity of the two kayaks mentioned is more than adequate (including a passenger).

Both of these are ocean going, but I would NEVER take one on fast flowing white water, that is not what they are built for.

I really miss my Folbot and I was an idiot for selling it.

Of course, when you make your choice, just remember to pursue your own bliss; not someone else's (like me, lol)

 

[Chinkapin]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

I'm really curious about this term. To my limited knowledge, it is just not used here the U.S. I have been to Canada five or six times and I have never heard anyone there use the term either. Just "canoe". Unless they wanted to specify a certain type e.g. "birch bark" canoe.

Always interested in Brit/Am. terminology, word choice, phrase differences, etc.

 

[Goatboy]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

I'm really curious about this term. To my limited knowledge, it is just not used here the U.S. I have been to Canada five or six times and I have never heard anyone there use the term either. Just "canoe". Unless they wanted to specify a certain type e.g. "birch bark" canoe.

Always interested in Brit/Am. terminology, word choice, phrase differences, etc.

Hiya Chinkapin,

"Canadian Canoe" in the UK generally refers to any type of open boat with higher ends, rounded bottom and 13' to 17' long. Doesn't really matter what it's made of ( Royalex, Ramex, wood or fibreglass ) just to the shape. I think it harks back to our romantic notion of fur trappers navigating the Canadian rivers of yore in their "indian canoes"

Though I'm sure some-one from the paddling forums will keep you right and maybe correct me as I just like to puddle about in canoes and have never been an expert - as my face shows when we hit white water

TTFN
Goatboy.

 

[Joonsy]

I was watching the new BBC thing Rivers, and in all the programs he seems to change boats a lot. Also he seem to go, too dangerous to use my canoes now in every program.

So this got me thinking, if I was building a Canadian Canoe I would be tempted to make locking bulkheads, so you could moor up to go into towns/villages, without having to take everything with you.

If you can sea canoe, how can any river get too dangerous, short of the obvous waterfall?

Also they talked about almost all British/Welsh rivers being unnavigable for legal reasons, never heard of this before. I have heard of not getting out of the boat just anywhere, because the land is private, is that what they are going on about? People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?

Anyway, the main question what would the idea one/two person craft actually be? I get that a canadian canoe is going to be high on the list, but would something more like the three men in a boat style, or more of a sailing dingy be better. Would a catamaran style canoe be better, because of white water risks, and general stability?

Bit of a duff program to be honest but so far the scenery is amazing, and makes you want to go buy one, and get out there using it.

one trouble with locking bulkheads is that if for any reason you capsized and your canoe got pinned/wedged under obstacle it would be difficult to remove the contents if you needed to, also if contents were heavy it may be difficult to ''right'' canoe after capsize if you couldn't remove them, i've done a fair bit of canoeing but am no expert so someone may offer better advice on this.

In England and Wales only certain waters have ''a legal right of access'', The Severn and Wye for example to name two, even these have areas with no legal access in their upsteam parts, the legality dates back to times the rivers were used as ''working waterways'', rivers that were never classed as working waterways (which is most of them) have not been granted any legal access and remain in private hands, there is an ongoing campaign to get legal access in all our rivers see the British Canoe Union website for more info. In Scotland the situation is diferent and legal access to all it's waters has been granted.

The programme missed out huge chunks of the River Wye and Severn, hardly any of the uppper sections of the wye were shown and middle sections of the Severn, it was a poor representation of the river i personally thought, there is loads more to see than what was shown.

Regards suitable canoe/kayak, it's horses for courses, different boats suit different waters, the open canoe is good option for touring the severn or wye for example, for sea a sea kayak would be better.

 

[John Fenna]

I will canoe on rivers from grade 3 white water to the open sea (up to about a mile off shore - I aint suicidal) and have taken trips of up to a week and needed no more than I carried in the canoe.
Grif was barking when he said that a Kayak was needed for the Wye - I have taken novices down the Yat in open canoes.
The ideal Bushy boat has to be the Open Canoe!
But then it could be I am biased as I am a level 4 coach in opens!

 

[Shewie]

I wish somebody had bothered to teach GRJ how to paddle his canoe properly before they filmed the series. I know that guy in Scotland had a bit of a go but he's still carried on with the goon stroke for the rest of the episodes.

Still, he looks happy enough I suppose.

 

[BorderReiver]

I will canoe on rivers from grade 3 white water to the open sea (up to about a mile off shore - I aint suicidal) and have taken trips of up to a week and needed no more than I carried in the canoe.
Grif was barking when he said that a Kayak was needed for the Wye - I have taken novices down the Yat in open canoes.
The ideal Bushy boat has to be the Open Canoe!
But then it could be I am biased as I am a level 4 coach in opens!

My first ever float in an open canoe was down the Yat. No bother.

 

[John Fenna]

I wish somebody had bothered to teach GRJ how to paddle his canoe properly before they filmed the series. I know that guy in Scotland had a bit of a go but he's still carried on with the goon stroke for the rest of the episodes.

Still, he looks happy enough I suppose.

Aye - but tired and sore!

He has a farm house not that far from me - perhaps I should offer lessons!

 

[TwoSticks]

I was watching the new BBC thing Rivers, and in all the programs he seems to change boats a lot. Also he seem to go, too dangerous to use my canoes now in every program.

Well, everyone has their own opinion and their own comfort zone so maybe that's as far as he feels confident pushing it. It's not a reflection of the capabilities of the boat as open canoes can easily handle grade 3 (+?) water. In fact, it's usually the paddler that's the limiting factor - I've often seen an empty canoe negotiate a rapid far better than one with people in it!

Also they talked about almost all British/Welsh rivers being unnavigable for legal reasons, never heard of this before. I have heard of not getting out of the boat just anywhere, because the land is private, is that what they are going on about? People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?

Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

 

[TwoSticks]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

I'm really curious about this term. To my limited knowledge, it is just not used here the U.S. I have been to Canada five or six times and I have never heard anyone there use the term either. Just "canoe". Unless they wanted to specify a certain type e.g. "birch bark" canoe.

Always interested in Brit/Am. terminology, word choice, phrase differences, etc.

Yes - it's just a canoe. But in the UK we also refer to kayaks as canoes. So, often when someone talks about 'canoeing' they might mean either (canadian or open) canoes, or kayaks. So we put the word 'canadian' or 'open' in front of the word when we really just mean what you call 'canoes' rather than kayaks!!!

 

[John Fenna]

Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

Very debatable!
Have a look at the river access site reachable from the Welsh Canoeing Assoc site......

 

[Bravo4]

I really miss my Folbot and I was an idiot for selling it.

Birds of a feather, or maybe that's fish of a scale....or...something...
I too really miss my Folbot and I too was an idiot for selling it. I moved to New Mexico so maybe not such an idiot, for that one .

I grew up on the water and have been wanting to get back and do some coastal beach cruising. I came across this 1972 Drascombe Dabber and just could not resist. She has, or rather should have, a yawl rig with a loose footed standing lugsail main, jib set flying from a bowsprit, mizzen with a bumpkin (you'll see a spar for a gunter in the pics, which is a hand-me-down from a Drascombe Lugger which is not actually a lugger but uses a gunter, you see the first Lugger was a lugger but later Luggers are typically not luggers although they can be). Obscure sailing information....:togo:

The hull design of the Lugger and the Dabber was inspired in part by the lines of a Coble which in turn has links to Viking ship design. :thinkerg: That's what you should get Minotaur, a Viking longboat . Or a Coble, or a canoe, no wait, sea kayak, or a little skiff, multi-hulls are fun, amphibious jeep, poncho raft?

Grace Darling, anyone?
There are a few working Cobles, long since converted from sail.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48905046@N00/428442601/sizes/l/
Off topic but a great picture of a Coble; launched and recovered from the beach, looks like a day to stay in.

This Dabber needs quite a bit of work and the saying that a boat is a hole in the water which one pours money into, well that looks to be true and I think I should have chosen a smaller hole. Have yet to sail her and not sure if I will get to. Might have to pass this one along, and feel like an idiot for that.

 

[wildman695]

Well, everyone has their own opinion and their own comfort zone so maybe that's as far as he feels confident pushing it. It's not a reflection of the capabilities of the boat as open canoes can easily handle grade 3 (+?) water. In fact, it's usually the paddler that's the limiting factor - I've often seen an empty canoe negotiate a rapid far better than one with people in it!


Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

Is that really the case, they own the bank and riverbed but not the water and you are on the water. Fishing any river from a public bridge or footpath is legal without the landowners permission so why would paddling on the water be any different. Any answers please?

 

[Minotaur]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

The program mentioned this, apparently it is us Brits, and the term we use for open top canoes. The Native Amercian Style, so the non-kayak style. Someone mentions the fact that we do call them both canoes, so that might be were it came from.

The programme missed out huge chunks of the River Wye and Severn, hardly any of the uppper sections of the wye were shown and middle sections of the Severn, it was a poor representation of the river i personally thought, there is loads more to see than what was shown.

Only reason I watched it, was to see the Wye, and they missed almost all of it out.

Grif was barking when he said that a Kayak was needed for the Wye - I have taken novices down the Yat in open canoes.

Would be a toss up, as to if I have canoed more on the Wye, or the Isis, but that is what I thought because I must have done the same white water in a Canadian Canoe.

The hull design of the Lugger and the Dabber was inspired in part by the lines of a Coble which in turn has links to Viking ship design. :thinkerg: That's what you should get Minotaur, a Viking longboat . Or a Coble, or a canoe, no wait, sea kayak, or a little skiff, multi-hulls are fun, amphibious jeep, poncho raft?

That was what inspired the question, there are crafts that ancient people used that could do both, like the smaller longboats.

Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

Never seen a sign about this, so how do they enforce it? Only way you can get off their river is to carry on. I mean they are not going to block it, because that might damage fishing in it.

 

[TwoSticks]

Very debatable!
Have a look at the river access site reachable from the Welsh Canoeing Assoc site......

Yes, and as a canoeist myself I know that just about every canoeist debates this......!!

One of the problems is that the bank and bed of every inland water is privately owned. We do have a right of access on those maintained as waterways, and those where Common Law or historical use gives us access,

People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?

The Severn between Pool Quay and Stourport is an example where we do have a right of access.

But that still leaves over 41,000 miles of river in England and Wales where we don't have a 'right' of access. Where we have no 'right' then access is contenscious and if we paddle there without permission, we 'may' be trespassing.

I think most of the debate is about the ambiguity - although we don't have a 'right' to access waterways doesn't mean we can't, and just because we 'may' be trespassing doesn't mean we are!

 

[Minotaur]

I think most of the debate is about the ambiguity - although we don't have a 'right' to access waterways doesn't mean we can't, and just because we 'may' be trespassing doesn't mean we are!

That is the thing unless it is a salmon fishing stretch with a lot of activty how would you even know the bit you were on is private?

 

[East Coaster]

Here we go with access problems again

As a matter of interest, has anybody ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for going down a private stretch of river in their canoe?

I'm not trying to promote law breaking here, but if I lived down south I'd paddle wherever took my fancy and just plead ignorance if approached by some scumbag sad enough to think they could actually 'own' running water.

The GRJ rivers programme didn't do too bad a job of the River Tay but you can tell he's obviously a novice in the canoe.

 

[helixpteron]

...... Anyway, the main question what would the idea one/two person craft actually be?......

To my mind, the ultimate Bushcraft Boat is the one you can take with you when head for the water, and when you leave the water, without the need for vehicles, trailers and trolleys or having to return to the put in.

I opted for a couple of Alpacka Rafts, like these......

Credit: Alpacka Raft.

Erin McKittrick bushwacking with her Packraft.

Credit: Bretwood Higman & Alpacka Raft.

Cycles welcome!

Credit: Eric Parsons, Epic Designs & Alpacka Raft.

Packs small (Bic pen for scale) weighs about 5lbs.

Credit: Expemag.com

There's a thread on Alpacka Rafts on the Forum.

 

[Minotaur]

Here we go with access problems again

I was always a bit on the fence about this sort of stuff. 90% of my access issues, were down to land owners not marking, or blocking paths. An attuitude I understand, because I have been around when people have walked straight across fields, when I am stood on the path watching them. I can understand someone wanting to protect a strech of river they are pumping money into for fishing etc.

As a matter of interest, has anybody ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for going down a private stretch of river in their canoe?

Bet a club that used a bit of water have been done at some point.

I'm not trying to promote law breaking here, but if I lived down south I'd paddle wherever took my fancy and just plead ignorance if approached by some scumbag sad enough to think they could actually 'own' running water.

I get that you can own something like water, I look for water rights when looking at land, the problem I have is that I cannot see this as enforceable. That said my understanding of water rights was you owned the bank, and sporting rights. Land owners have always gotten a bad rap, and nine times out of ten, they are in the right.

The GRJ rivers programme didn't do too bad a job of the River Tay but you can tell he's obviously a novice in the canoe.

The thing I did not get about it was he struck these two rivers together. The Wye could easily have supported a programme on its own, and so could the Seven.

I opted for a couple of Alpacka Rafts, like these......

These do look interesting I must admit, but they have the same issues for me as standard canoes.