Being sensible ? Carbon monoxide and Methanol

[myotis]

this is the point i was trying to make when i said i'd be interested to see a comparison table with other fuels.

There were some comparisons in the doc that I linked to, but it seems comparisons aren't straightforward, for example the threshold level for methanol is lower than petrol, but it seems petrol vapourises more easily so in the same conditions, petrol will reach dangerous levels quicker than methanol.

The more I read, the more complex it became :-(

Graham

 

[Gray]

I've been through it all once before tbh and eventually decided i would give it ago. I dont use it all the time, mainly in cold conditions. I'm sure as sure can be its safe, as long as i'm safe, just like i'm safe with any other fuel i use.

 

[salan]

Actually I can remember back in the day when it was quite common for mechanics to use gas (petrol or kerosene (paraffin) to clean grease from their hands or dirty metal bits.

i used to work in the analytical industry and used many solvents to wash my hands (including benzine,trich, methanol, etc. Times change and things become more safety conscious.
According to a friend in the HSA, there are a lot more deaths from petrol every year then they have recorded ever for methanol deaths in the UK, let alone gas canister deaths.
To qualify that, as far as I know that is ALL types of death relating to the substance so not a direct /fair comparison.
I come back to what I said before (and rik and many other have said),
a) use what you are happy with
b) ALL fuels are potentially dangerous and need to be treated with respect.

 

[rik_uk3]

Good post Salan but sadly it will fall on some deaf ears chap.

A few years ago here if you used aluminium pots/pans/cups you'd go ga ga and it took common sense time to kick in here on BCUK, hopefully in a couple of years we'll see common sense and reality applied to methanol.

 

[santaman2000]

i used to work in the analytical industry and used many solvents to wash my hands (including benzine,trich, methanol, etc. Times change and things become more safety conscious.
According to a friend in the HSA, there are a lot more deaths from petrol every year then they have recorded ever for methanol deaths in the UK, let alone gas canister deaths.
To qualify that, as far as I know that is ALL types of death relating to the substance so not a direct /fair comparison.
I come back to what I said before (and rik and many other have said),
a) use what you are happy with
b) ALL fuels are potentially dangerous and need to be treated with respect.

Yeah. I should have been clearer that I'm definitely not advocating it. But I do remember back when.

 

[mrcharly]

The anecdotal "Thousands of hikers use it every year" statement isn't worth listening to. I've never seen methanol for sale in Australia, UK, France, Germany . . .

What I have seen for sale is Ethanol, sometimes mixed with Methanol.

I would bet a fair amount of my salary that the hikers who say they use 'methanol' are actually using ethanol mixed with methanol.

 

[Andy BB]

Actually, you're wrong there, Charlie! The most common "alcohol" fuel used in the US is yellow "Heet" which is predominantly methanol.

 

[Gray]

I've just bought (a week ago) 25 lts of 99.95% virgin methanol for £26 here. You can even buy it off ebay

 

[Bucephalas]

I don't use either (I don't even own an alcohol stove unless you count the Sterno) But I believe it has to do with availability. I've never even seen "meths" over here but methanol is available cheaply in every DIY store in 1 gallon or larger cans for just a few dollars.

The difference in BTU output is negligible, this opinion is based on my own side by side comparison (i have a video of the test). The difference in boiling a cup of water is measured in seconds, yet as I've stated, Methanol can be obtained FAR cheaper than Meths.

 

[myotis]

Actually, you're wrong there, Charlie! The most common "alcohol" fuel used in the US is yellow "Heet" which is predominantly methanol.

Heet is 99% methanol.

http://www2.wellingtoncoop.com/MSDS/Shop Chemicals SDS/In Store Chemicals/HEET.pdf

Graham

 

[rik_uk3]

The anecdotal "Thousands of hikers use it every year" statement isn't worth listening to. I've never seen methanol for sale in Australia, UK, France, Germany . . .

What I have seen for sale is Ethanol, sometimes mixed with Methanol.

I would bet a fair amount of my salary that the hikers who say they use 'methanol' are actually using ethanol mixed with methanol.

Methanol is quite new in the UK and only recently became more affordable/available. HEET as said is pretty much methanol and used by thousands of American hikers (see pose #33).

The '[FONT=&quot]Alcool Methylique' found all over france is often methanol.[/FONT] Spiritus in Germany is often ethanol but [FONT=&quot]Methyl Alkohol is mostly if not all methanol.[/FONT]

 

[lannyman8]

when i had my Lanny i used bio-diesel and made my own, methanol is easy to use for stoves which i used all the time, its just the same as meths with out the stink. when people refer to bio-diesel and methanol it only becomes very iffey and dangerous when mixed with other chemicals, which is part of the process, only then does it damage nerves and seep into skin and muscle tissue causing damage. the same goes for breathing in the vapor, common sense really as most have said with all fuels, be safe dont drink or bath in the stuff and your all good really.

if you feel this is wrong then its simple, dont use the stuff...

ref tents and ventilation the normal vents to keep condensation down is fine, i would not use a meths stove in a tent with a built in ground sheet just in case i knocked over the stove and it melted the ground sheet, gas i have used many times with the doors shut and vents set to minimum, but thats just cooking, as again others have said said dont leave it burning over night and never use a charcoal burner, they cause co2 over load...

regards to all, keep safe and keep getting out.

chris.

 

[rik_uk3]

The hiker Chris Townsend recommended using an Optimus Trapper stove. Like the Heatpal and Origo marine stoves the alcohol is not 'loose' in a tank but absorbed into a sort of felt that fills the tank, no chance of a fuel spill. Sadly the Trapper are not easy to find these days (the Heatpal's are) but I am surprised nobody has taken up this idea with other commercial stoves for campers, or have they?

 

[lannyman8]

The hiker Chris Townsend recommended using an Optimus Trapper stove. Like the Heatpal and Origo marine stoves the alcohol is not 'loose' in a tank but absorbed into a sort of felt that fills the tank, no chance of a fuel spill. Sadly the Trapper are not easy to find these days (the Heatpal's are) but I am surprised nobody has taken up this idea with other commercial stoves for campers, or have they?

my Vaseline tin stove uses loft insulation (fiber glass) as a wick, does not really stop it spilling though, just increases the burn time...

will have a look at those stoves Rick...

 

[PDA1]

@Santaman - "Meths" is an abbreviation of"methylated spirits" . It is what is called in the USA"denatured alcohol". The nearest commonlu available equivalent is Klean Strip Green, which is 95%ethanol(ethyl alcohol) abot 4% methanol (methyl alcohol) and 1% methyl ethyl ketone. UK "Meths" is 95% ethanol, 4% methanol plus a drop of pyridine to make it taste and smel.l foul, and a little purple dye so that you won't mistake it for anything else. BTW Klean strip SLX is also denatured (ethyl)alcohol, but has nearly 50% methanol. "Heet" (yellow bottle) is 99%methanol. Do not confuse with "Heet" red bottle, whcih is isopropaniol. The much vaunted "Bio ethanol" is also denatured (ethyl) alcohol with the similar 5% methanol as "Meths" or Klean Strip Green.

As others have pointed out, petroleum fuels are actually more toxic than the various alcohols, as well as being much more dangerous because they easily form explosive mixtures with air. Butane and propane possibly the worst in this respect because they are gaseous when uncontained at normal daytime summer temperatures.

Just for reference for the bushcrafters here (as opposed to campers/hikers). Wood smoke contains far, far more extremely dangerous substances than the combustion products of any alcohol. Even so, it would be wrong of me to state that anyone who uses wood fires to cook is obviously a complete idiot and should not be allowed out without a responsible chaperone. All stuff that burns is potentially dangerous, when it is burning, it is at its most dangerous. Nearly all combustion products are potentially dangerous. It is for the responsible bushcrafter/camper/hiker to learn what those dangers are and how to circumvent them by good practice. Bleating on about the dangers of cooking in aluminium, using xyz as a fuel without even attempting to learn anything about the subject is boring for those of us who make the attempt.

 

[steve a]

Rik, quite a few people are making alcohol stoves which have carbon felt in the body, this prevents spills. The ones I have and the ones I have seen are made by cottage industry produces but the idea is catching on and growing.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/companion-burner-for-woodgaz-and-bushbuddy.php

 

[rik_uk3]

Good stuff steve, I've only 'played' with home made stoves, I am Trangia lover but thinking about this I have Sirram 'Atmospheric Pad' burner somewhere with a liner and thats a lot older than me. I do wrap glass fibre around the burner bells of some stoves like my 123's and 8's which help soak up a little extra priming fuel.

This little one is not at full bloom but for a brew boiler they work fine

 

[salan]

Minibulldesign makes stove with carbon felt inside to stop spills. I have a lot of his stoves. BTW he uses Heet lol.
www.minibulldesign.com
Alan

 

[rik_uk3]

Many Americans do Alan

 

[bigroomboy]

@Santaman - "Meths" is an abbreviation of"methylated spirits" . It is what is called in the USA"denatured alcohol". The nearest commonlu available equivalent is Klean Strip Green, which is 95%ethanol(ethyl alcohol) abot 4% methanol (methyl alcohol) and 1% methyl ethyl ketone. UK "Meths" is 95% ethanol, 4% methanol plus a drop of pyridine to make it taste and smel.l foul, and a little purple dye so that you won't mistake it for anything else. BTW Klean strip SLX is also denatured (ethyl)alcohol, but has nearly 50% methanol. "Heet" (yellow bottle) is 99%methanol. Do not confuse with "Heet" red bottle, whcih is isopropaniol. The much vaunted "Bio ethanol" is also denatured (ethyl) alcohol with the similar 5% methanol as "Meths" or Klean Strip Green.

As others have pointed out, petroleum fuels are actually more toxic than the various alcohols, as well as being much more dangerous because they easily form explosive mixtures with air. Butane and propane possibly the worst in this respect because they are gaseous when uncontained at normal daytime summer temperatures.

Just for reference for the bushcrafters here (as opposed to campers/hikers). Wood smoke contains far, far more extremely dangerous substances than the combustion products of any alcohol. Even so, it would be wrong of me to state that anyone who uses wood fires to cook is obviously a complete idiot and should not be allowed out without a responsible chaperone. All stuff that burns is potentially dangerous, when it is burning, it is at its most dangerous. Nearly all combustion products are potentially dangerous. It is for the responsible bushcrafter/camper/hiker to learn what those dangers are and how to circumvent them by good practice. Bleating on about the dangers of cooking in aluminium, using xyz as a fuel without even attempting to learn anything about the subject is boring for those of us who make the attempt.

I agree completely. Although as I said earlier, methanol is a traditional denaturing agent but has been largely replaced by wood naphtha and others as it's possible to separate methanol and ethanol with repeated distillations.