Being sensible ? Carbon monoxide and Methanol

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PDA1

Settler
Feb 3, 2011
646
5
Framingham, MA USA
@bigroomboy - V interesting to see the new UK 2013 regs for denatured alcphol. You can no longer call it "meths" because it no longer contains methanol! It 100 parts (volume) ethanol, 3 parts Isopropanol and 3 parts Methyl ethyl ketone. Purple dye optional. Perhaps you could call it "isoprops" :) So, if one is not keen on Methanol, it can be avoided in the UK by using the new DNA .
 

rg598

Native
Wow! I guess each country has its own irrational obsessions and fears of random objects. Seems like methanol panic has hit the UK.

If half of the things that were said about methanol in this thread were true, then most backpackers in the US would either be dead or blind by now. Methanol has been used here as fuel for a very long time. The reason it is so common is that it provides very consistent performance. Denatured alcohol can be very different from manufacturer to manufacturer and even from batch to batch because it can be denatured in many different ways. Methanol (main source being HEET in yellow bottle) is consistent across the board.

As others have already pointed out, while methanol is more toxic that ethanol, it is less toxic than kerosene, gasoline, and far less toxic than wood smoke. Anyone who runs a bushcraft school or campsite who bans people who use methanol, or advocates for any such action, or calls people idiots for using methanol, needs to strongly re-evaluate his priorities, and stop drinking so much ethanol.
 
Sep 8, 2013
8
0
holland
I tend to keep my fuels separate from the rest of my backpack as much as possible anyway, none of it is really healthy :lmao: and i prefer to err on the side of caution..an accidental spillage can always occur for some reason and i prefer it to be in one of the outside pockets of my pack in that case

Meth is so widely used, im not to worried about it being supposedly extremely more dangerous then other fuels.
 

Gray

Full Member
Sep 18, 2008
2,091
10
Scouser living in Salford South UK
Wow! I guess each country has its own irrational obsessions and fears of random objects. Seems like methanol panic has hit the UK.

If half of the things that were said about methanol in this thread were true, then most backpackers in the US would either be dead or blind by now. Methanol has been used here as fuel for a very long time. The reason it is so common is that it provides very consistent performance. Denatured alcohol can be very different from manufacturer to manufacturer and even from batch to batch because it can be denatured in many different ways. Methanol (main source being HEET in yellow bottle) is consistent across the board.

As others have already pointed out, while methanol is more toxic that ethanol, it is less toxic than kerosene, gasoline, and far less toxic than wood smoke. Anyone who runs a bushcraft school or campsite who bans people who use methanol, or advocates for any such action, or calls people idiots for using methanol, needs to strongly re-evaluate his priorities, and stop drinking so much ethanol.

well said buddy
 

horsevad

Tenderfoot
Oct 22, 2009
92
1
Denmark
Wow! I guess each country has its own irrational obsessions and fears of random objects. Seems like methanol panic has hit the UK.

If half of the things that were said about methanol in this thread were true, then most backpackers in the US would either be dead or blind by now. Methanol has been used here as fuel for a very long time. The reason it is so common is that it provides very consistent performance. Denatured alcohol can be very different from manufacturer to manufacturer and even from batch to batch because it can be denatured in many different ways. Methanol (main source being HEET in yellow bottle) is consistent across the board.

As others have already pointed out, while methanol is more toxic that ethanol, it is less toxic than kerosene, gasoline, and far less toxic than wood smoke. Anyone who runs a bushcraft school or campsite who bans people who use methanol, or advocates for any such action, or calls people idiots for using methanol, needs to strongly re-evaluate his priorities, and stop drinking so much ethanol.



While I don't know whether your last paragraph is pointed at me or not (as I have never called anyone an idiot because of different opinions), I would like to re-iterate that using methanol as a fuel on any of the courses I teach or am responsible for would be stopped.

Ranking toxicity, as you describe in your above post, is actually a rather difficult - and often somewhat opinion-based - task, as there are are very wide array of parameters to choose from in the ranking process. And while we probably agree that all fuels are toxic or dangerous in some way, some of danger-inducing situations would be quite irrelevant in a bushcraft setting. And comparing systemic health effects from skin exposure to systemic health effects from ingestion of two different fuels would likewise be a less than ideal basis for realistic comparisons.

Comparing with wood smoke is a rather poor comparison, as the health effects from wood smoke wildly differs from the health effects from methanol. Not to say that one is more dangerous than the other, but they are wildly different. One of the key skills I teach on my courses are the ability to make a near smoke-free fire, as excessive wood smoke is quite bad for both health and comfort.

None of the other fuels - that I am aware of - can make people go blind from skin exposure. None of the other fuels - that I am aware of - produces that severe systemic health effects from skin exposure.

And while you may have your reasons to disagree with this opinion, please respect that other people likewise may have their reasons to disagree with you.

//Kim Horsevad
 

rg598

Native
While I don't know whether your last paragraph is pointed at me or not (as I have never called anyone an idiot because of different opinions), I would like to re-iterate that using methanol as a fuel on any of the courses I teach or am responsible for would be stopped.

Ranking toxicity, as you describe in your above post, is actually a rather difficult - and often somewhat opinion-based - task, as there are are very wide array of parameters to choose from in the ranking process. And while we probably agree that all fuels are toxic or dangerous in some way, some of danger-inducing situations would be quite irrelevant in a bushcraft setting. And comparing systemic health effects from skin exposure to systemic health effects from ingestion of two different fuels would likewise be a less than ideal basis for realistic comparisons.

Comparing with wood smoke is a rather poor comparison, as the health effects from wood smoke wildly differs from the health effects from methanol. Not to say that one is more dangerous than the other, but they are wildly different. One of the key skills I teach on my courses are the ability to make a near smoke-free fire, as excessive wood smoke is quite bad for both health and comfort.

None of the other fuels - that I am aware of - can make people go blind from skin exposure. None of the other fuels - that I am aware of - produces that severe systemic health effects from skin exposure.

And while you may have your reasons to disagree with this opinion, please respect that other people likewise may have their reasons to disagree with you.

//Kim Horsevad

I will make absolutely sure to never attend any course that you may be teaching. I am truly shocked that someone who teaches anything to anyone would be so wildly uninformed on a particular subject, especially when they find themselves so high up on that soap box. Being afraid of one's own shadow is none of my business; to each his own. However, forcing those paranoid views on others seems terribly inappropriate.
 

feralpig

Forager
Aug 6, 2013
183
1
Mid Wales
While I don't know whether your last paragraph is pointed at me or not (as I have never called anyone an idiot because of different opinions), I would like to re-iterate that using methanol as a fuel on any of the courses I teach or am responsible for would be stopped.

Ranking toxicity, as you describe in your above post, is actually a rather difficult - and often somewhat opinion-based - task, as there are are very wide array of parameters to choose from in the ranking process. And while we probably agree that all fuels are toxic or dangerous in some way, some of danger-inducing situations would be quite irrelevant in a bushcraft setting. And comparing systemic health effects from skin exposure to systemic health effects from ingestion of two different fuels would likewise be a less than ideal basis for realistic comparisons.

Comparing with wood smoke is a rather poor comparison, as the health effects from wood smoke wildly differs from the health effects from methanol. Not to say that one is more dangerous than the other, but they are wildly different. One of the key skills I teach on my courses are the ability to make a near smoke-free fire, as excessive wood smoke is quite bad for both health and comfort.

None of the other fuels - that I am aware of - can make people go blind from skin exposure. None of the other fuels - that I am aware of - produces that severe systemic health effects from skin exposure.

And while you may have your reasons to disagree with this opinion, please respect that other people likewise may have their reasons to disagree with you.

//Kim Horsevad

I agree with you totally. I have been covered in gasoline, diesel, thinners, and a multitude of other substances. I frequently use them to get oil off my hands. I have inhaled a lot of woodsmoke.
I may drop dead tomorrow from doing any of the above, or, like most, will probably achieve a fair age. Whatever happens to me, it is unlikely that it could be pinned definitively on doing any of the above.

Methanol, on the other hand, is proven beyond any doubt to be lethal, in relatively small doses. IIRC, 10ml will make you blind, more will make you mad, and 100ml will make you dead.
Any Methanol absorbed into the skin will produce Formaldehyde in the body, same if the vapours are inhaled. In itself, this is not a problem, but the accumulative effects could lead to problems, far more so than a splash of gasoline on ones skin, or a lung full of wood smoke. There is absolutely nothing paranoid about hard scientific fact.

Anyone is free to use whatever fuel they choose. I suspect, though, that if one were to run a bushcraft school or outdoors type business in the UK, and allowed the use of Methanol as a camping fuel, they would have the HSE breathing down their necks pretty quickly.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
I agree with you totally. I have been covered in gasoline, diesel, thinners, and a multitude of other substances. I frequently use them to get oil off my hands. I have inhaled a lot of woodsmoke.....

Inhaled wood smoke? That's not the primary danger. The toxicity is from eating smoked food (or food cooked over wood fires) It's a known carcinogen.

And yet I have absolutely no intention of giving up smoked meat.
 
Sep 1, 2012
159
0
Manchester
So what is your opinion of the thousands of America ultralighters who have been burning yellow Heet in their pop can stoves for years without ill effect?

Do you allow people to carry a knife on your courses?
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Interesting!

Fact is, being alive is dangerous, particularly in the outdoors. Petrol explodes in a poorly maintained stove, methanol is very dangerous in small quantities if you drink it or bathe in it. Paraffin will burn you badly, woodsmoke is carcinogenic. Knives, axes , machetes etc will do you a nasty- potentially fatal - injury. Heck, I was stung by a hornet in France a few weeks ago and needed to get to Lille General hospital smartish as I developed a severe reaction to the sting on my neck. (and that was having a quiet nap in the car with the windows open to allow a bit of a breeze in...)

Re your courses - it's your course, do what you like. I'm sure you don't allow woodfires, knives or axes either, or petrol or paraffin stoves, and have an epi pen in case someone goes into anaphylactic shock after getting stung. Or maybe you you don't!

In the USA, I use yellow Heet (virtually pure methanol) in my alcohol stoves. In the UK, normally meths or the French equivalent. I treat it - as I do knives, axes, my petrol, canister gas, alcohol and paraffin stoves, with respect and caution. Surely thats the sensible way - the bushcraft way?
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
This thread has dragged on a tad but to repeat myself again... use common sense with all fuels. I suspect we all have irrational fears of some things, in stoves for me its the Optimus 111B which runs on 'Coleman' fuel(s) and the Borde, perfectly good stoves used by many people but for whatever reason I've never felt comfortable using them and hence no longer own either.

If your not happy using methanol then don't use it but also don't preach to others. All being well I'm off camping on the 21st October, the nights will be chilly and at night I'll heat my Juno 800 with a Heatpal running on methanol. The Juno will be heated in the evening by a Coleman or Vapalux lantern (depending upon which one I take) and the Heatpal will be lit just before retiring for the night. I'll get a night long burn time from the heater, wake up cosy (the tent will of course be ventilated) and I'll put a brew on using a stove with fuel of choice.

These are my decisions based upon experience, knowledge and common sense. To be honest (and perhaps a tad blunt) I'm sick to death of the diatribes launched on internet sites often by people who only employ information that suits their particular rant of the day.
 

rg598

Native
Methanol, on the other hand, is proven beyond any doubt to be lethal, in relatively small doses. IIRC, 10ml will make you blind, more will make you mad, and 100ml will make you dead.
Any Methanol absorbed into the skin will produce Formaldehyde in the body, same if the vapours are inhaled. In itself, this is not a problem, but the accumulative effects could lead to problems, far more so than a splash of gasoline on ones skin, or a lung full of wood smoke. There is absolutely nothing paranoid about hard scientific fact.

So has gasoline. The trick is not to drink it. Bushcraft!

For reference purposes, so is bleach, and iodine, two substances we use to purify our water in the woods. Drinking bleach directly from the bottle is bad for your health. Same goes for iodine, as well as paint, washing detergent, and insect repellent.

Methanol can be found in anything, from windshield wiper fluid, to furniture varnish. I have not been able to find a single case where anyone has gone blind or died from skin contact with methanol. The only cases we know of are of people who were trying to get drunk by drinking paint thinner. Like I said, do not drink your stove fuel.

If the paranoia about methanol that seems to overwhelm some was in any way routed in reality, methanol would be a banned substance, and most US backpackers would be dead.

It is the nature of being paranoid to believe that the thing you are paranoid about is very real. It is outsiders that have to point out that the danger is not grounded in reality. When you have millions of people backpacking and consistently using methanol as their fuel source without any ill effect, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the scare factor.

Again, if anyone can not overcome their fears, and wishes not to use a particular substance or product, that is fine. However, forcing that paranoia on others is very misguided. Of course, a person can do whatever they want in their own private school, but I am equally free to make sure I never attend it. I like my instructors a bit more grounded in reality. I'll go sleep in the woods, hang my food up to protect it from roaming bears, I'll swing an axe, use a knife, build wood fires, and use a petrol stove which I pressurize by pumping it, but god forbid there is methanol allowed anywhere on the premises! :confused: Padded helmets for everyone!
 
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myotis

Full Member
Apr 28, 2008
837
1
Somerset, UK.
Methanol, on the other hand, is proven beyond any doubt to be lethal, in relatively small doses. IIRC, 10ml will make you blind, more will make you mad, and 100ml will make you dead.
Any Methanol absorbed into the skin will produce Formaldehyde in the body, same if the vapours are inhaled. In itself, this is not a problem, but the accumulative effects could lead to problems, far more so than a splash of gasoline on ones skin, or a lung full of wood smoke. There is absolutely nothing paranoid about hard scientific fact.

it might be a little paranoid. Since starting the post I have been doing a lot of reading on this, mainly EPA, CDC material, but also a range of scientific papers, and data sheets.


The EPA consider Metanol to be slightly toxic, as they do Kerosene/parafin

Small quantities of methanol on the skin evaporate quicker than it is a absorbed, and considered a low risk.

The health risks from inhaling methanol are associated with long term regular exposure, over months and years.

Drinking more than 80mls have been associated with death, and there seems no doubt that drinking even small quantities of the stuff, isn't going to do you any good.

So far, I have managed to avoid drinking any of the fuels I use, as they are stored in original containers, or decanted into proper fuel bottles. Trangia bottles for Meths, Primus bottles for Parafin, and MSR bottles for petrol.

The bottles are filled in the open so limited opportunity for any build up of any dangerous concentrations. When fuel is spilt, I wash my hands, not so much for health reasons, but more to get rid of the smell.

Stoves are also filled out of doors, and stored in tent porch. The fuel bottles only have the tops of for a few minutes.

When lit, the stoves are burned with good ventilation to prevent build up of CO, which I am assuming will also help reduce the build up of any unburnt fuel.

Even when I was camping every week, the opportunities for methanol poisoning seem tiny.

Everyone, of course needs to make their own risk assessment, but so far I haven't read anything to convince me that methanol is going to subject me to any greater risks than using the fuels I already use.

Unless I am daft enough to drink the stuff.

cheers,

Graham
 

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