Being sensible ? Carbon monoxide and Methanol

[myotis]

This is really two questions, but they share a common problem. Most, (all) of us here will be aware of the dangers from carbon monoxide when burning fuel in confined spaces and the toxicity risks from using methanol as a cheaper alternative to Meths.

But what does, make sure your tent is "well ventilated" actually mean? Does it mean doors wide open and the tent just providing a big windbreak, or does it just mean not zipping everything up tight when using a sewn in groundsheet. Or at what point in between.


Or, in terms of Methanol, what does "take reasonable precautions" actually mean.

Just not licking your fingers if you spill some on your hand, or does it mean wearing gloves when handling it. Or maybe only making sure you wash your hands after handling, if you manage to spill some.

i would find it useful to know what people think being sensible means in practice.

cheers,

Graham

 

[BearInTheWoods]

Tent flap open one side, stove on the grass.

As for the fuel, I'd sooner pay the extra than be chucking toxic fuel around near my food. What if you spill some on your rations? Ir if there's a leak - meths evaporates and just stinks, if all your kit is toxic how are you going to manage?

IMO, 'being sensible' means paying the extra for Meths.

 

[rg598]

As far as the fuel, don't drink it. That's about it. People here in the US use methanol all the time in alcohol stoves. It's not a problem at all. It's just not a good way to get drunk.

Ventilation, in my opinion, is not a big issue if we are just talking about cooking. Having a stove burn for 10-20 min will not cause CO poisoning even if the tent is not ventilated at all. All of the examples of CO poisoning you see occurs when people leave the stove burning over night for heat and fall asleep. My tent doesn't have a floor, so I cook inside it all the time when it is raining or snowing. I've done it with alcohol stoves, canister stoves, and petrol stoves. The regular ventilation in your tent should be enough if we are talking just about cooking. At least that's my opinion.

 

[rik_uk3]

Tent flap open one side, stove on the grass.

As for the fuel, I'd sooner pay the extra than be chucking toxic fuel around near my food. What if you spill some on your rations? Ir if there's a leak - meths evaporates and just stinks, if all your kit is toxic how are you going to manage?

IMO, 'being sensible' means paying the extra for Meths.

Best bet is not to chuck it around. Methanol is safe enough, my stock answer is "Don't drink it and don't wash in it". How on the Lord's good earth are you going to spill any into your rations. If methanol leaks (Use a good bottle, Trangia and it won't) it evaporates, if and what residual (and I doubt there is much in the slightest) is left ain't going to do you any harm.

Methanol is used by thousands of hikers world wide its only the UK really where some people seem to have a bug in the dark place about it. That said it is quite new as a fuel in the UK, certainly in 'bushcraft' so a couple of years down the line all the 'stove experts' here will be advocating its use.

 

[Gray]

I asked all these questions a while ago too and its a really good alternative to meths, its safe enough if your safe enough, just like any fuel. As far as ventilation and co goes, according to wiki, methanol burns clean and green producing mostly co2 and water. As stated, dont drink it and dont wash in it and your good to go imho.

 

[PDA1]

@ bearin the woods - Meths contains about 5% methanol so is "toxic" to your food. That's why it is put into ethanol, to make it poisonous (denatured).
Re stove in tent - as suggested, use in the vestibule with a flap open. IMO, kerosene/gasoline stoves would present a greater danger of CO poisoning than a typical alcohol stove. IMO a bigger danger is burning down your shelter, so be very careful. Many DIY alcohol stoves are quite narrow based, so there is always a danger of them being upset and spilling burning alcohol onto the floor, if that was the sewn in groundsheet of your tent, the result would be less than ideal.


Re handling methanol. Don't lick your fingers. If you do get some on your skin, it will evaporate in very little time. Definitely don't drink it under any circumstances, and that includes "Meths" or any other denatured ethanol. According to UK customs and excise rules, the major denaturing agent for Ethanol is always Methanol - and that applies to so called "bio fuel" as well as "meths".

 

[Gray]

I asked all these questions a while ago too and its a really good alternative to meths, its safe enough if your safe enough, just like any fuel. As far as ventilation and co goes, according to wiki, methanol burns clean and green producing mostly co2 and water. As stated, dont drink it and dont wash in it and your good to go imho.

Forgot to mention, it can be gelled to prevent spillage. Dont know how to do it and would depend what stove your using.

 

[Skaukraft]

I find the idea of using methanol as fuel for a stove absolutely ridiculous and just plain stupid. I actually didn't belive it was done, therefore I posted a question on here a while ago to see if what you refer to as meths is or isn't methanol.
Not only is it highly poisonus if ingested, it is also a high risk of both brain and nerve damage if absorbed through your skin. It burns with a invisible flame and the risk of accidentaly light up everything is much higher than when burning ethanol.

If I were to teach or guide during a hike or bushcraftevent anyone bringing methanol as a part of their kit would most definately be told to pack their stuff and leave the site.
I also belive you would be banned from several campingsites in Norway if you were to use methanol as stove fuel inside the camp.

 

[Gray]

I find the idea of using methanol as fuel for a stove absolutely ridiculous and just plain stupid. I actually didn't belive it was done, therefore I posted a question on here a while ago to see if what you refer to as meths is or isn't methanol.
Not only is it highly poisonus if ingested, it is also a high risk of both brain and nerve damage if absorbed through your skin. It burns with a invisible flame and the risk of accidentaly light up everything is much higher than when burning ethanol.

If I were to teach or guide during a hike or bushcraftevent anyone bringing methanol as a part of their kit would most definately be told to pack their stuff and leave the site.

Its a good job your not teaching me then, mate. Heres a quote from wiki for you......

"Methanol is also a widely used fuel in camping and boating stoves. Methanol burns well in an unpressurized burner, so alcohol stoves are often very simple, sometimes little more than a cup to hold fuel. This lack of complexity makes them a favorite of hikers who spend extended time in the wilderness. Similarly, the alcohol can also be gelled to reduce risk of leaking or spilling, as with the brand "Sterno"."

"absolutely ridiculous and just plain stupid"......... I think you've got a damn cheek

 

[demographic]

Got a mate who makes biodiesel and he uses fairly industrial quantities of the stuff, its effects are cumulative and one of them is that you go blind from breathing the fumes in.
Now, despite the fact that I can also get about 200 litres for about a hundred and twenty quid its not my favourite fuel because of that.

You pays yer money and takes yer choices.

 

[salan]

Why is it that every time this comes up, you have the 'totally toxic and only idiots use it' or the 'i wash my teeth with it'?
IT'S A FUEL all fuels are dangerous in some way or other.would you wash you hands/drink petrol/paraffin?
conciddering the number of people using methanol through out the world, The number of deaths from it is very low and they were all from illicit drinks/stills etc. None (i could find) from using it as a fuel.
Alan

 

[horsevad]

Its a good job your not teaching me then, mate. Heres a quote from wiki for you......

"Methanol is also a widely used fuel in camping and boating stoves. Methanol burns well in an unpressurized burner, so alcohol stoves are often very simple, sometimes little more than a cup to hold fuel. This lack of complexity makes them a favorite of hikers who spend extended time in the wilderness. Similarly, the alcohol can also be gelled to reduce risk of leaking or spilling, as with the brand "Sterno"."

"absolutely ridiculous and just plain stupid"......... I think you've got a damn cheek

Methanol, or - more correctly, methyl alcohol, is actually a rather poor choice for use in connection with food. While most fuels are dangerous or even poisonous methyl alcohol is one of the few which can produce quite severe systemic effects through skin contamination.

Like "Skaukraft", I would not allow the use of methanol on the courses I teach.

Regarding the concentrations needed for producing adverse health effects one could use the following datasheet from CDC as a rough guide:

(Image credit: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/EmergencyResponseCard_29750029.html)


Like other aspects of wilderness travel - avoiding a risk which can be avoided without diminishing ones other possibilities in the planned travel should always be considered the prudent choice. Being aware of such "hidden" or non-obviois risks is an important aspect of leading or instructing others.

//Kim Horsevad

 

[Bucephalas]

You'll always get views in both camps, some extreme either way.
For my 2 peneth, I agree with rick_uk.
All fuels have their risks. Methanol appears to be more of a health risk than ethanol ( http://www.flints.co.uk/pdffiles/methylated_spirits.pdf ), but used with common sense it should pose no health risk.
I've used Methanol for two years now and will continue to do so. I bought 99% virgin methanol and bought 50 litres and it works out to about 45p per litre. That's why I use it!
Meths is expensive and it stinks.


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[BearInTheWoods]

Right I'm sticking to my Coleman and my Jetboil from now on. The Trangia's worn out anyway.

 

[myotis]

Thanks for comments so far, just to clarify, I wasn't specifically talking about burning methanol in tents, just cooking or heating with any fuel (including wood) in a tent.

I just linked the two as threads on both topics often end up as debates about whether you should or should not cook in a tent or should or should not use methanol as a fuel. This seems to then result in long threads that contain very little solid advice. Hence the reason for my original post.

People always have and always will cook in and heat tents, and although uncommon in the UK, judging by the regular reference to Heet, in American forums , the use of methanol in stoves is well accepted elsewhere in the world.

So, while not wishing to influence those who consider you should simply never use methanol, or never cook in a tent, it would be good, for the purposes of this thread, to work on the assumption that the decision to use methanol, or/and cook in and heat a tent has already been made.

I apologise if this sounds ungrateful, but the overarching arguments about should you or should you not, have been covered in other threads.

Cheers,

Graham

 

[Gray]

Yep, the points you make are fine. I've no idea what that table means tbh, what is ppm. The opinions of Mr Skaukrauft are fine as well, but....I take offence to somebody implying that I and everyone else who uses methanol as a fuel is ridiculous and plain stupid. Its a fuel, like it or not, if you dont want to use it then thats up to you but please dont imply that I'm stupid, because my choice is not agreeable. All fuels are dangerous, each in there own way and we take precautions with each and every one we use. I dont like petrol as a fuel, but i wouldn't imply a person was stupid for using it.
it would be interesting to post a table of fuels, like the one above, comparing the dangers, hazards, deaths by poisoning, deaths by burning (or injuries of course) of different camp stove fuels. Amounts of co emitted and other dangerous gases or vapours when burning. I say when burning because its stored in a sealed container at all other times. Its not like i'm leaning over it breathing it in like maybe someone who has to work with it. It gets poured in the burner and lit.
this table would have to be in a format that we can all understand, i for one am no scientist and i'm not about to start googling all the abbreviations on a table such as the one above.

 

[brambles]

Heres a quote from wiki for you......

"Methanol is also a widely used fuel in camping and boating stoves. Methanol burns well in an unpressurized burner, so alcohol stoves are often very simple, sometimes little more than a cup to hold fuel. This lack of complexity makes them a favorite of hikers who spend extended time in the wilderness. Similarly, the alcohol can also be gelled to reduce risk of leaking or spilling, as with the brand "Sterno"."

This might just illustrate the problem of using the infinite monkeys that are Wikipedia - does'nt Sterno use ethanol rather than methanol?

 

[Gray]

This might just illustrate the problem of using the infinite monkeys that are Wikipedia - does'nt Sterno use ethanol rather than methanol?

uses both ethanol and methanol

 

[Lupis]

Yep, the points you make are fine. I've no idea what that table means tbh, what is ppm. The opinions of Mr Skaukrauft are fine as well, but....I take offence to somebody implying that I and everyone else who uses methanol as a fuel is ridiculous and plain stupid. Its a fuel, like it or not, if you dont want to use it then thats up to you but please dont imply that I'm stupid, because my choice is not agreeable. All fuels are dangerous, each in there own way and we take precautions with each and every one we use. I dont like petrol as a fuel, but i wouldn't imply a person was stupid for using it.
it would be interesting to post a table of fuels, like the one above, comparing the dangers, hazards, deaths by poisoning, deaths by burning (or injuries of course) of different camp stove fuels. Amounts of co emitted and other dangerous gases or vapours when burning. I say when burning because its stored in a sealed container at all other times. Its not like i'm leaning over it breathing it in like maybe someone who has to work with it. It gets poured in the burner and lit.
this table would have to be in a format that we can all understand, i for one am no scientist and i'm not about to start googling all the abbreviations on a table such as the one above.

PPM, in this context, likely means parts per million.

 

[Gray]

PPM, in this context, likely means parts per million.

cheers, i didnt know