Being sensible ? Carbon monoxide and Methanol
- Thread starter myotis
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. Sensibility is the name of the game with any flammable material.
A bit out of date, but some really interesting methanol safety information here
http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/files/ethos2005/pdf/stokes_paper.pdf
which seems to have been written for this organisation http://stoves.projectgaia.com/index.php
which is promoting the use of clean and safe stoves and fuels
cheers,
Graham
http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/files/ethos2005/pdf/stokes_paper.pdf
which seems to have been written for this organisation http://stoves.projectgaia.com/index.php
which is promoting the use of clean and safe stoves and fuels
cheers,
Graham
A table in ppm is meant for vapour build up in enclosed spaces. So it doesn't really apply to filling a stove outside. The main hazard I'm our case is spilling on your hand when filling and adsorption through the skin. It can be quite toxic But so can many things it just requires care and being responsible for our own safety.
Maths is not good either. That smell everybody complains about is pyridine which is toxic and especially bad for a mans swimmers. It also has purple dye and denaturing agent commonly wood napha. For me not a better choice then methanol.
B&Q sell bio ethanol at a good price which is basically IMS but you don't need a licence and its quite cheap. Its my choice for alcohol stoves.
Maths is not good either. That smell everybody complains about is pyridine which is toxic and especially bad for a mans swimmers. It also has purple dye and denaturing agent commonly wood napha. For me not a better choice then methanol.
B&Q sell bio ethanol at a good price which is basically IMS but you don't need a licence and its quite cheap. Its my choice for alcohol stoves.
As I understood the OP, the the question were concerned with vapour build-up in a tent, for which a table of PPM-values would seem fit.
For skin exposure the absorption rate for methanol is quite high, at 0,192mg/cm2/min
(Reference: Dutkiewicz, B., Konczalik, J. & Karwacki, W. (1980). Skin Absorption and Per Os Administration of Methanol in Men. In: International Archives of Occupational and Environmental Health #47, 1980, pp81-88)
On of the well-documented cases of severe systemic health effects from skin absorbtion of methanol is from Poland. A painter accidentially spilled some methanol on his trousers and footwear - and went blind after a few days.
(Reference: Łazariew, N.W. (1954). Noxious substances in industry. Państwowe Wydawnictwo Techniczne, Warszawa)
//Kim Horsevad
Is that because it was in his shoe and couldnt evaporate so was in contact with his skin for a long time
Assuming the OP has lit the stove and is not just looking at it then it doesn't apply.
I pointed out skin adsorption is a hazard however people are are to do their own research and make their own decisions with what they want to use.
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I make Bio diesel, and obviously use Methanol. Personally, I loath the stuff. The smell of it makes me feel sick, the fumes made me choke the one time I got a lung full, and the next morning I felt suicidal.
The processor is now set up so i don't get exposed to the fumes, but the first time I used it, I wanted a batch out a bit quick, and it wasn't quite finished.
The right vapour concentration in the air, and it will explode violently, and it burns with an almost invisible flame. More than one person has had a processor explode.
I'm sure the health risk associated with ingestion have been covered before.
Each to their own, but personally, I would never entertain using it as a cooking fuel.
Edited to add, it needs an ignition source to explode, not suggesting it will spontaneously combust.
The processor is now set up so i don't get exposed to the fumes, but the first time I used it, I wanted a batch out a bit quick, and it wasn't quite finished.
The right vapour concentration in the air, and it will explode violently, and it burns with an almost invisible flame. More than one person has had a processor explode.
I'm sure the health risk associated with ingestion have been covered before.
Each to their own, but personally, I would never entertain using it as a cooking fuel.
Edited to add, it needs an ignition source to explode, not suggesting it will spontaneously combust.
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Not lower enough to make any difference in the real world when actually using a stove and not getting paranoid about the fuel
Actually I can remember back in the day when it was quite common for mechanics to use gas (petrol or kerosene (paraffin) to clean grease from their hands or dirty metal bits.
I don't use either (I don't even own an alcohol stove unless you count the Sterno) But I believe it has to do with availability. I've never even seen "meths" over here but methanol is available cheaply in every DIY store in 1 gallon or larger cans for just a few dollars.
A lot of the American 'stovies' I talk too use HEET in alcohol stoves santaman which seems to be widely available. A lot of 'Musher' stoves are run on methanol up in the Arctic.
The thought of sleeping in a tent with something burning away next to me gives me the heebie jeebies.
Don't do it then, simple really. As I said in another thread your tent/shelter/clothes/sleeping bag will keep you warm.
Methanol, or - more correctly, methyl alcohol, is actually a rather poor choice for use in connection with food. While most fuels are dangerous or even poisonous methyl alcohol is one of the few which can produce quite severe systemic effects through skin contamination.
Like "Skaukraft", I would not allow the use of methanol on the courses I teach.
Regarding the concentrations needed for producing adverse health effects one could use the following datasheet from CDC as a rough guide:
(Image credit: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/EmergencyResponseCard_29750029.html)
Like other aspects of wilderness travel - avoiding a risk which can be avoided without diminishing ones other possibilities in the planned travel should always be considered the prudent choice. Being aware of such "hidden" or non-obviois risks is an important aspect of leading or instructing others.
//Kim Horsevad
Better tell the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry as their fairly sure the proper name is methanol.
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Having now done a lot more reading on this, a critical discovery for me, is that "on balance" as it isn't straightforward, methanol is LESS toxic than petrol or parafin/kerosene.
As these are the fuels I primarily use, and have used, in the case of parafin, for over 50 years, the methanol/ethanol argument has suddenly become irrelevant.
Using methanol sensibly is no different from using petrol or parafin sensibly.
Yes I know others have already made a similar point, but I hadn't realised the toxicity of other "every day" fuels.
I had allowed myself to be misled into believing methanol was an especially dangerous fuel, where in fact it is ethanol that is an unusually safe one.
Still relevant to those looking for an ultra safe fuel, but if you are using it, for example, to light a primus, then it looks as if you should be more worried about the parafin, than the methanol.
Cheers,
Graham
As these are the fuels I primarily use, and have used, in the case of parafin, for over 50 years, the methanol/ethanol argument has suddenly become irrelevant.
Using methanol sensibly is no different from using petrol or parafin sensibly.
Yes I know others have already made a similar point, but I hadn't realised the toxicity of other "every day" fuels.
I had allowed myself to be misled into believing methanol was an especially dangerous fuel, where in fact it is ethanol that is an unusually safe one.
Still relevant to those looking for an ultra safe fuel, but if you are using it, for example, to light a primus, then it looks as if you should be more worried about the parafin, than the methanol.
Cheers,
Graham
Me too. Though I use an Oztent for long stay camping I just wouldn't sleep with a flame burning. I have a poncy gas tent heater that I run last thing at night while I get ready for bed. After that it's down to my bag and blanket to keep me warm.
Everyone goes on about adequate ventilation. That's like sleeping with the windows open. Personally, if it's cold out, I prefer to close the vents to conserve any immediate body heat, and let the tent air during the day.
this is the point i was trying to make when i said i'd be interested to see a comparison table with other fuels.
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