BANNING OFFENSIVE WEAPONS – A CONSULTATION Home Office Consultation

[leon-1]

I must admit that I find the terminology quite interesting. The definition of weapon is basically something that is used to injure, defeat or destroy.

You do not defensively destroy things, you do not defensively defeat things either (I think repell would be a better word).

People have been known to use thier minds as weapons, this in itself is normally both agressive and offensive. Swords, knives and guns can be used in both offensive and defensive roles. It just depends on the mind that is wielding the tool.

If I was to crush someones skull with a large glass pub ashtray, the ashtray would be termed as an "offensive weapon" in a court of law. If you wish "the tool" no matter what it is, a pen, ashtray, glass or any of the other things that could be possibly used by an assailant can be classified as "offensive" due to the action of the holder, it also becomes a weapon because they have used it to cause injury.

In reality most anything could be classified as an offensive weapon, but then that is down to the person controlling the object. Yet again we demonize an object rather than taking responsibility for our own actions and failures.

 

[P Wren]

It sounds like there are some people over on that side of the pond that will never rest until everyone in the UK is required by law to be coated in a thick layer of spongy foam, armed only with toothbrushes.

Easy there mrostov a toothbrush can be pretty dangerous in the wrong hands.
Perhaps in to ensure our safety HM Government cound consult and introduce an Statutory Instument requiring, by law, the use of safety goggles when handling tooth brushes in order to prevent/minimise 'eye-pokage'.


Seriously though people, this particular consultation is unlikely to affect 99% of bushcrafters. However if you are a knife/sword collector who is not a practising martial artist and not a member of the British Kendo association, but you just an average Joe who happens to admire and collect samurai swords and other knives and swords then you may be affected.

The consultation process is nothing more sinister than the Government asking you for your views.

All you have to do is respond objectively and rationally to the consultation, pointing out that you are worried that your hobby may/will be criminalised/restricted by the policy proposals or that that you face an additional financial burden by having to become a member of British Kendo or some other licensing body and that you believe this is unfair as many of you have pointed out it simple affects the law abiding members of society covered by the proposals and not those who would use the articles in question for illegal purposes (lets refer to them as sword weilding nutters).

It's an open and transparent process - which is there for you to feed your views to the relevant Department so that they can consider your views before they make and implement their policy.

Kind regards

P

 

[PhilParry]

That's it....I'm off... :theyareon .this bloody country is really starting to get up my NOSTRILS!!!!


I'm obviously going to have to learn to batton and featherstick with a toothbrush.....if I can do fire by friction (yes, I still have the scars!) I can do this....

Always liked a challenge!

 

[Butchd]

The consultation process is nothing more sinister than the Government asking you for your views.

All you have to do is respond objectively and rationally to the consultation, pointing out that you are worried that your hobby may/will be criminalised/restricted by the policy proposals or that that you face an additional financial burden by having to become a member of British Kendo or some other licensing body and that you believe this is unfair as many of you have pointed out it simple affects the law abiding members of society covered by the proposals and not those who would use the articles in question for illegal purposes (lets refer to them as sword weilding nutters).

It's an open and transparent process - which is there for you to feed your views to the relevant Department so that they can consider your views before they make and implement their policy.

Kind regards

P

Unfortunately experience tells me that the while the process is open and transparent, the processing of the results is not. Often the consultation is not written in neutral language, and that can be telling. If the consultation is written in a neutral way then you have a good chance of getting your objections heard. If you read the consultation and realise that it's been written in a way that is biased towards an outcome, then it becomes much more likely that the consultation results will only reflect those views that support it. That is my experience in any case.

 

[Bushcraft4life]

Easy there mrostov a toothbrush can be pretty dangerous in the wrong hands.
Perhaps in to ensure our safety HM Government cound consult and introduce an Statutory Instument requiring, by law, the use of safety goggles when handling tooth brushes in order to prevent/minimise 'eye-pokage'.


Seriously though people, this particular consultation is unlikely to affect 99% of bushcrafters. However if you are a knife/sword collector who is not a practising martial artist and not a member of the British Kendo association, but you just an average Joe who happens to admire and collect samurai swords and other knives and swords then you may be affected.

The consultation process is nothing more sinister than the Government asking you for your views.

All you have to do is respond objectively and rationally to the consultation, pointing out that you are worried that your hobby may/will be criminalised/restricted by the policy proposals or that that you face an additional financial burden by having to become a member of British Kendo or some other licensing body and that you believe this is unfair as many of you have pointed out it simple affects the law abiding members of society covered by the proposals and not those who would use the articles in question for illegal purposes (lets refer to them as sword weilding nutters).

It's an open and transparent process - which is there for you to feed your views to the relevant Department so that they can consider your views before they make and implement their policy.

Kind regards

P

Well i am a martial artist in the making and i do collect various types of dangerous weapons e.g. Katanas. 3 sectional staff. nunchaku ect. I dont really see the point off this to be honest. Because weapons will always be readily available to the public. Like Leon-1 said anything can be classed as a dangerous weapon. In martial arts like wing chun the ''weapons'' they refer to are parts of the body such as hands and feet. A rolled up newspaper is a dangerous weapon. I reckon they must get bored in the goverment to come up with stuff like this.

 

[P Wren]

Unfortunately experience tells me that the while the process is open and transparent, the processing of the results is not. Often the consultation is not written in neutral language, and that can be telling. If the consultation is written in a neutral way then you have a good chance of getting your objections heard. If you read the consultation and realise that it's been written in a way that is biased towards an outcome, then it becomes much more likely that the consultation results will only reflect those views that support it. That is my experience in any case.

Butchd you and some previous respondants to this thread have made some very valid points. All Government consultations in England are required to meet very specific criteria - Departments can't just 'go through the process' or carry out a tick box exercise. Consultations should be very thourough and well thought out exercises. All consultaions should meet the following criteria:

1. Consult widely throughout the process, allowing a minimum of 12 weeks for written consultation at least once during the development of the policy.
2. Be clear about what your proposals are, who may be affected, what questions are being asked and the timescale for responses.
3. Ensure that your consultation is clear, concise and widely accessible.
4. Give feedback regarding the responses received and how the consultation process influenced the policy.
5. Monitor your department’s effectiveness at consultation, including through the use of a designated consultation co-ordinator.
6. Ensure your consultation follows better regulation best practice, including carrying out a Regulatory Impact Assessment if appropriate.

If you don't think that the proposals meet these requirements or that the proposals will affect people or groups that the Government Department hasn't identified or considered, then anyone responding to the consultation can use these criteria and the proposals in the consultation document as a means for challenging or seeking further clarification of the policy proposals from the Department in question.

I hope this is helpful to anyone who finds themselves potentially affected by these proposals.

P

 

[Tengu]

Call me a cynic but perhaps someones trying to get their hands upon some often extreemly valuable antiques....

 

[FGYT]

Call me a cynic but perhaps someones trying to get their hands upon some often extreemly valuable antiques....

funny the ones handed in in the amnesty were not given back
so they must be illegal allready


Dunc

 

[Butchd]

It's a nice theory that the consultations are fair and on being challenged independent people might review the process and decisions, but it's not my experience. Most consultations have a political agenda behind them and the people who have gone to all the bother of getting it out there aren't easily moved into a position of retracting them. Many consultations are not an information finding exercise, or rather they are but the contrary opinions somehow manage to get excluded for one reason or another.

 

[Surrey Yeoman]

Once again it strikes me that the Government is going about things the wrong way!

Objects, be they knives, swords, guns, baseball bats, tiddlywinks or whatever ARE NOT DANGEROUS! It’s what certain types of people do with them that’s dangerous.

If you want to put a 3 foot long bit of bent steel in a fancy sheath on your wall and occasionally get it down to polish it / prance about with it in the front room, then that’s fine - whatever floats your boat! :swordfigh

If you decide to take that same article out to the High Street and wave it about / chop people up with it, then you are a danger to society and need to be locked up for a long time.

Don’t ban the items - BAN THE BAD PEOPLE BY LOCKING THEM UP FOR A LONG TIME!

Otherwise you’ll end up banning everything from swords to cricket stumps and turnips!

(or even sharp pointed slices of mango!)

Aaaarrrpp! Rant over, going for a rub down with a copy of The Guardian!

Yeoman

 

[Minotaur]

It sounds like there are some people over on that side of the pond that will never rest until everyone in the UK is required by law to be coated in a thick layer of spongy foam, armed only with toothbrushes.

Just you wait, Bush well not be in office forever.

What it seems to be about is doing something, without actually doing anything.

You know my favorite quote when this subject always comes up, two safest places to live in the world - are the two places with almost no objections to honest law abiding people having and using weapons.

Seriously though people, this particular consultation is unlikely to affect 99% of bushcrafters. However if you are a knife/sword collector who is not a practising martial artist and not a member of the British Kendo association, but you just an average Joe who happens to admire and collect samurai swords and other knives and swords then you may be affected.

I honestly do not think that they are going to go after collectors, but the thing that worries me is maybe they are giving in to the Government a little to easy this time round. They are after the cheap pieces of rubbish from China etc, but it is one step away yet again.

Yet, as I said before if they try to ban anything over 12" it could effect bushcrafters.

Just to raise a Bushcrafty point, if they ban swords would that include Parangs or Machettes in general?

Well i am a martial artist in the making and i do collect various types of dangerous weapons e.g. Katanas. 3 sectional staff. nunchaku ect. I dont really see the point off this to be honest. Because weapons will always be readily available to the public.

I hate to say this, but you are the prime cadidate for this law to effect. It is the cheap Katanas they are going after, so unless yours is worth a fortune and made of iron, it might be worth making your voice heard in the consaltion.

Like Leon-1 said anything can be classed as a dangerous weapon. In martial arts like wing chun the ''weapons'' they refer to are parts of the body such as hands and feet.

Karate comes from a time when all weapons where banned, except to a certain class of people.

A rolled up newspaper is a dangerous weapon. I reckon they must get bored in the goverment to come up with stuff like this.

Actually you are right but it comes back into what someone said, it is why you are carrying it. The idiot with the paper said it was for defense, against the law, doing the lawyers job for them.

Call me a cynic but perhaps someones trying to get their hands upon some often extreemly valuable antiques....

You should go and read some of the tales of the Gun laws, very interesting. People noticed the guns they had handed in for sale!

 

[nickg]

Butchd you and some previous respondants to this thread have made some very valid points. All Government consultations in England are required to meet very specific criteria - Departments can't just 'go through the process' or carry out a tick box exercise. Consultations should be very thourough and well thought out exercises. All consultaions should meet the following criteria:

1. Consult widely throughout the process, allowing a minimum of 12 weeks for written consultation at least once during the development of the policy.
2. Be clear about what your proposals are, who may be affected, what questions are being asked and the timescale for responses.
3. Ensure that your consultation is clear, concise and widely accessible.
4. Give feedback regarding the responses received and how the consultation process influenced the policy.
5. Monitor your department’s effectiveness at consultation, including through the use of a designated consultation co-ordinator.
6. Ensure your consultation follows better regulation best practice, including carrying out a Regulatory Impact Assessment if appropriate.

If you don't think that the proposals meet these requirements or that the proposals will affect people or groups that the Government Department hasn't identified or considered, then anyone responding to the consultation can use these criteria and the proposals in the consultation document as a means for challenging or seeking further clarification of the policy proposals from the Department in question.

I hope this is helpful to anyone who finds themselves potentially affected by these proposals.

P

I'm sorry if I give offense but quite honestly if you genuinly belive that then you are naive in the extreme.
No government would instigate such an action without a definate result in mind. They simply would not do it without a reason and that reason would not be mere idle curiosity. it would be with a definate intention to justify a piece of legislation.
View the activities of the cullen report to see the end result, view the way the dangerous dogs act came into bieng. In particular view the piece of legislation pushed through to "prevent warehouse parties" which now means that you must BY LAW apply for council permission to invite your neighbors into your garden for a barbecue. No Im not kidding.

The coffee is ready

Nick

 

[ArkAngel]

I've watched this thread with interest.

I was made aware of this consultation by a copy of it dropping through my door with the home office asking for my opinion. It would appear that a number of martial artists have been selected to consult on this.

People have made some excellent points so far.

My first opinion would be to say yes add them to the banned weapons list. However another part of me says no, if people want to collect them who am i to stop them? This applies to a number of things even hunting for instance, i think it's a useless method of pest control but hey, if that's what you enjoy who am i to say no. I have already had one of my hobbies taken away with the handgun ban.

As "true" weapons these cheap imports are no good at all. With blade to blade combat these things are likely to take your own eyes out as they shatter from the impact. Blade to flesh contact is another matter and in that respect they are dangerous in the wrong hands. As training weapons for martial artists they are no good. I had a few cheapies years ago and the stresses they are put under even in kata wrecked them in weeks. I gave up and went back to the good old red oak wooden training weapons, they dont have quite the same feel but they don't break either!!!

I can't see how this will help reduce crime. Other have already stated that a number of banned weapons have not reduced the crime statistics, if anything they have increased. Guns, shotguns, swords, knives, penknives, craft knives, kitchen knives, chisels, screwdrivers, broken bottles etc etc etc do not kill. It is the person using them. It is a mindset that must be addressed not the weapon of choice.

I am a 3rd degree black belt in ju-jitsu....how do you legislate for me?

My sensei and i used to train the local police force in their "control and restraint" before budget cutbacks downsized their training. We are both "normal" members of society, he of course is a number of belts above me. We go about our normal business without smacking seven buckets of sushi out of the general populace. However if we are attacked or threatened we are quite capable of dispensing lethal force without the aid of weapons of any kind. Our mindset and self control means that is a last resort. Other peoples violence threshold is much lower than this either normally or aided by alcohol or drugs.

This is what the home office need to be looking into. The mindset of people with their attitudes to weapons and violent behaviour in general not the weapons they decide to use. I fear that is beyond the capabilities of most people without the handicap of being an MP

I find it interesting to observe that the more an item is banned, more turn up. The more that anti social or violent behaviour is legislated against the more it happens. It appears that the tighter you try and control something the worse it becomes.

I have a lot of thinking to do before i word my answer back to the home office. Thankfully we have until May to do it.

 

[leon-1]

I am a 3rd degree black belt in ju-jitsu....how do you legislate for me?

I like this as a point of view.

I spent 11 years as a trained sniper, how do you legislate against me??

The answer is you don't, what you do is legislate on masse, this relieves the fact that you are picking on a minority (it doesn't matter that they are possibly the most controlled people on the planet).

It doesn't make it right, but it does mean that they are doing something, correct or incorrect.

Whether you or I agree with it or not is not really the main point, the main point is that they are trying thier best to protect people.

IMHO they are wrong, but in the end will this make a difference???

Any and all objects can be used as an "offensive weapon", it matters little what the object is, it is the person and not the object.

Education is the way ahead and if people cannot see it then they are at fault.

 

[dommyracer]

I am a 3rd degree black belt in ju-jitsu....how do you legislate for me?

One of the Japanese forms I'm guessing? Does it make you a one man killing Machine like Stephen Seagull?

 

[Bushcraft4life]

Yeah definately a Japanese form. I dunno how to add to this . There will always be people who live to hurt others.

As a martial artist myself this legislation so i am told will affect us more so than the average joe bloggs who likes the look of fancy weapons. Instead of trying to ban the weapons they should do more to educate people on what they can do and are capable of. Like i said earlier in the thread, weapons will always be readily available to the public so the point of this really is hard to see.

 

[Steve R]

I have a feeling how this will turn out.

After causing concern among Sword collectors/owners with the consultation, it wouldnt surprise me in the least if the end result is..............You may collect and own IF YOU PURCHASE A LICENSE.



It is usually about the money.

 

[Tengu]

Well that would be the least of the To Kens worries.

They would be worried about confiscation. Theres an awful lot of money tied up in these swords.

 

[nickg]

I have a feeling how this will turn out.

After causing concern among Sword collectors/owners with the consultation, it wouldnt surprise me in the least if the end result is..............You may collect and own IF YOU PURCHASE A LICENSE.



It is usually about the money.

Agree completely

Once that is in they can then continue to turn the ratchet a little bit at a time. See the history of the Firearms license. Once the act is in place, regardless or its effectiveness, it is far simpler to amend here and there (the current Firearms act has a clause to permit the home sec to amend any part of it at any time should he see fit - without parlimentary discussion or approval) and the actual cost of the license would be infinately variable. There was some time ago an internal request to CPO's to assess the cost of administering a FAC. some of the claims were ridiculous, asking thousands per license.

Nick

 

[BorderReiver]

The reason the goverment is focusing this primarily on katanas is because they are cheap, easy to buy more than any other sword and very light which makes using them for criminal activity easier than say a broadsword or something similar. It was also published a few years back that in citys such as manchester and leeds katanas were becoming increasingly popular as a weapon choice and a status symbol.

BUT,why have a consultation on banning a weapon which it is already an offence to carry without good reason?

Carrying ANYTHING for use as a weapon is illegal in the UK.