The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

[Janne]

For sure. But this is a peaceful forum full of hinged people!

My guns are tools of sport. Both mine and the wife’s.

In case of a home invasion they will transform though.

 

[Billy-o]

My legs are used for hiking hills and sporting elegant slacks. In case of home invasion they transform into tools for getting out of there at olympic speed.

 

[FoxyRick]

Yes, some things are designed as weapons. The government, however, are treating all knives etc. as weapons and continually referring to them as such, and only as such. So is the press. They want all knives to be classed as weapons and literally put us on the defensive for owning what are, for the vast majority of knives and vast majority of users, tools and certainly not weapons.

Even the police firearms advisers do not refer to legally held firearms as weapons, I think.

I own lots of tools. I don't own any weapons.

 

[santaman2000]

Whilst I kind of agree with the sentiment, there are a ton of things that are designed as weapons. Even the Americans raise an eyebrow at a Streetsweeper, for instance. A random, inaccurate multi-shot shotgun to be used in numbers for firing indiscriminately into crowds of people. Not ducks or targets, just large groups of people. We have to be clear around this stuff and distinguish between reasonable tools and destructive weapons, otherwise we sound as unhinged as Them.

What's "unhinged" is the very notion that people don't have an inherent right to both self defense and an effective tool (weapon) to exercise that right.

 

[santaman2000]

Copied from Amazon regarding Age prohibited Items

About Age Restrictions

Certain items available on Amazon.co.uk are age restricted.


By placing an order for one of these items you are declaring that you are 18 years of age or over. These items must be used responsibly and appropriately.


Delivery of age restricted items will require the signature of the recipient at the delivery address. Identification may be required in order to verify the age of the recipient. Delivery to a nominated neighbour or safe location isn't available for these items.

As they will deliver the package as long as it is signed for by an adult, they are not really checking the age of the purchaser, just ensuring whoever signs for it ( the recipient)is over 18.

It should also be noted that policy says that identification may be required. It doesn't say it will be required.

Realistically what responsible parent (the adult signing for any packages) doesn't check what his kids have gotten? Yeah, I know there are lads of irresponsible parents out there too.

 

[Billy-o]

What's "unhinged" is the very notion that people don't have an inherent right to both self defense and an effective tool (weapon) to exercise that right.

No need to get your hackles up.

It is a perspective thing. I don't live in the US anymore and partly it is because of the high rate of death and injury due to the gun laws, and partly it is because (due to all that death and injury) I had found myself understanding and actually coming round to your way of thinking. It is kind of self fulfilling, I suppose. Everyone has the right to carry, so everyone does, so lots of people use them, so everyone needs to carry one.

I had a neighbour who told me about the guy who lived two doors down from us. He'd got into an argument over parking with his neighbour. On one evening, an exchange got heated, so he went back into his house, came out with his gun and shot his neighbour. Not fatally or anything like, but he went to jail. There's the problem. Ordinarily a perfectly civil character. Now his kids get to see him wearing orange. Banal and tragic, right? Your self-defense argument raises the ante too high in some ways, but, as well, in other ways, too many people are too attuned to the shooting to care much or do anything about it.

It was notable yesterday, in a depressing sort of way. The shooting in the Maryland newspaper was the fourth item on the BBC radio news that night. Fourth! After stories about Brexit, the World Cup and a royal visit. When did it happen that a shooting like that just falls off the news cycle? It is like everybody is becoming numb to it, and there's little can be done. I was watching a YouTube thread about hiking the AT the other day and the difficulties/inconveniences of carrying a concealed gun. Perfectly sane discussion on different state permits and what it means to be carrying a gun in your pack rather than on your hip or under your arm ... the Q&A in the comments quickly turned into a civil liberties squabble. So quickly, so kneejerk, that I really did have to wonder what the discussion was actually about.

 

[santaman2000]

No need to get your hackles up.

It is a perspective thing. I don't live in the US anymore and partly it is because of the high rate of death and injury due to the gun laws, and partly it is because (due to all that death and injury) I had found myself coming round to your way of thinking. It is kind of self fulfilling, I suppose. Everyone has the right to carry, so everyone does, so lots of people use them, so everyone needs to carry one.

I had a neighbour who told me about the guy who lived two doors down from us. He'd got into an argument over parking with his neighbour. An exchange got heated, so he went back into his house, came out with his gun and shot his neighbour. Not fatally or anything like, but he went to jail. There's the problem. Ordinarily a perfectly civil character. Now his kids get to see him wearing orange. Your self defense argument raises the ante too high in some ways, but in other ways, people are too attuned to the shooting.

It was notable yesterday, in a depressing sort of way. The shooting in the Maryland newspaper was the fourth item on the BBC radio news that night. Fourth! After stories about Brexit, the World Cup and a royal visit. When did it happen that happen that a shooting like that just falls off the news cycle? It is like everybody is becoming numb to it, and there's little can be done. I was watching a YouTube thread about hiking the AT the other day and the difficulties/inconveniences of carrying a concealed gun. Perfectly sane discussion on different state permits and what it means to be carrying a gun in your pack rather than on your hip or under your arm ... the Q&A in the comments quickly turned into a civil liberties squabble. So quickly, so kneejerk, that I really did have to wonder what the discussion was actually about.

I get you argument but the reality is a bit contradictory. Even as gun ownership has grown since 1994 to a record level, gun violence has dropped to the lowest level since 1960 (the first year records were kept) www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-gun-sales-soar-gun-crimes-plummet/ The other problem with gun "control" (or knife control) laws, whether they be licensing or outright bans, is that they only affect the law abiding.

 

[richy3333]

Even the police firearms advisers do not refer to legally held firearms as weapons, I think.

The officer that last year did our renewals kept referring to them as weapons and I had to keep correcting him!

 

[slowworm]

I've received a few emails about this petition if you think signing such hings helps: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/222776

Remove article 15 of the Offensive Weapons Bill (HC Bill 232)
After numerous representations to the Home Office and Metropolitan Police offering multiple solutions that will reduce availability of blades to those who wish to use them as weapons the Government have persisted with a misinformed proposal which is at best misguided and at worst dangerous.

 

[redneck]

Apologies if this has already been asked but how will this affect orders from abroad. I order from Brisa often and was wondering if they can still deliver to a home address.

 

[b-uk]

Hi All,


You can send your points direct to the committee going over the wording of the bill for consideration;



https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2018/june/have-your-say-on-the-offensive-weapons-bill/

I sent them the following;

To add an amendment that would allow ID to be checked on delivery to a residential address by a fit for purpose specialist courier service, we already operate such a specialist delivery service on a local scale and could expand this to cover our industry, you could add conditions such as recording ID details, DOB and customer signature for a length of time similar to the legislation for air weapons currently in place. This is a viable solution and far less destructive than an unnecessary outright ban.


There are specialist companies offering ID verification at the point of checkout, you could require all online companies have third party age verification software incorporated into their website checkout process, I believe this coupled with the delivery service is iron clad.


To give you some figures, we see 4 purchase attempts by under 18’s annually, we use video verification of ID when needed so we are always 100% sure we are dealing with someone over 18, it is possible to run an online business and be certain your customer is over 18 when it is done correctly.

 

[Dean]

Government responded
This response was given on 18 July 2018

The Bill prevents knives which cause serious harm from being delivered to residential addresses but does not stop delivery of bladed items and knives to business premises or businesses run from home.

Retailers online and offline are prohibited from selling knives to under 18s. Evidence from online test purchase operations conducted over the last decade, where online shopping has become increasingly common, shows that the majority of sampled online retailers failed to have effective age verification procedures in place. The failure rate for online test purchases of knives has not significantly improved over this period.

The Government has therefore sought to improve these outcomes by conducting a public consultation and introducing legislation that will place more stringent controls on online sellers of knives.

Following concerns expressed in the consultation, certain defences were introduced into the Bill that has been published. The prohibition on the delivery of knives to residential addresses is now limited to those knives that can cause serious injury. If ordered online these knives will need to be collected from a place where age verification can take place, either by the purchaser or their representative.

In respect of other bladed items and knives, the Bill provides a number of defences around the prohibition of delivery to a residential address. For example, deliveries to business premises, including where a business is run from home, would not be affected by the prohibition placed in the Bill on delivery to a residential address. Other items that would be exempt from the prohibition on delivery to a residential address would include encased razor blades; knives with a blade of less than 3 inches; knives that cannot cause serious injury, for example table knives; bladed products designed or manufactured to specifications from the buyer such as bespoke knives. There are also exemptions for bladed products that are used for sporting purposes, such as fencing swords and bladed products that would be used for re-enactment activities.

Home Office

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/222776?reveal_response=yes

 

[redneck]

"Sporting purposes".. Is bushcraft a sport?

 

[Janne]

A re-enactment of historical / traditional skills.

 

[C_Claycomb]

"Sporting purposes".. Is bushcraft a sport?

There is no doubt that they mean fencing and medieval martial arts. Bushcraft isn't a sport. It is a pursuit and hobby. There is no competitive element.

 

[Billy-o]

Bushcraft, maybe it is a pastime .. legitimate, like camping, which needs certain equipment.

Here, at the foot of every trail, there are great big signs put up by the Parks Board reminding you, in a direct and often forceful tone, to check and make sure that you have with you a knife (and a few other things)

My guess is that, unless you are heading to Glastonbury, if you have a knife in a rucksack with a tent, stove and sleeping bag, UK cops are just going to let you pass. Though why they'd be searching you in the first place could be a question you'd want to put either to yourself or them

 

[redneck]

There is no doubt that they mean fencing and medieval martial arts. Bushcraft isn't a sport. It is a pursuit and hobby. There is no competitive element.

I wouldn't be so quick to pigeon hole it like that.. otherwise hunting and fishing would not be considered sports either and there's no doubt they are.. I think bushcraft could easily fit in with all other "field sports", "country sports" and "outdoor sports".. Not all field sports have a competitive element and if it's insisted that to be a sport they must have then we only have to point to certain tv channels to see how often these shows are shown using survival and bushcraft skills to win money or fame. There's certainly a competitive element in programs like Alone and Naked and Afraid.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Anyone who has been on here as long as you have should know that people who identify themselves as bushcrafters struggle to all agree on what bushcraft is! I don't want to go back down the rabbit hole of debating with anyone what bushcraft is, it is a boring and pointless discussion. I was not pigeon holing anything. I was stating fact as it applies in this case.

Let us remember what the frame of reference is. The proposed law states:

15 Delivery of bladed products to residential premises etc

(1) This section applies if—

(a) a person (“the seller”) sells a bladed product to another person (“the
buyer”), and

(b) the seller and the buyer are not in each other’s presence at the time of
the sale.​

(2) The seller commits an offence if, for the purposes of supplying the bladed
product to the buyer, the seller delivers the bladed product, or arranges for its
delivery, to residential premises.

(3) The seller commits an offence if, for the purposes of supplying the bladed
product to the buyer, the seller delivers the bladed product, or arranges for its
delivery, to a locker.​

16 Defences to offence under section 15
....

(4) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 15 to prove
that they reasonably believed that the buyer bought the bladed product for use
for relevant sporting purposes or for the purposes of historical re-enactment.

...
(9) For the purposes of this section a bladed product is used by a person for
relevant sporting purposes if and only if—

(a) the product is used by the person to participate in a competitive sport
involving combat between individuals, and

(b) use of the product is an integral part of that sport.
​

That is cut and dried. Sports are competitive and involve combat using the bladed article. You can try to argue that bushcraft is a sport, like hunting or fishing, but apart from you not getting full support even in this community, it really doesn't matter since neither of those sports is covered by the defence either. And it is only a defence for the Seller if they deliver to someone's house. A defence, not an exception.

I wouldn't want to try standing in front of a magistrate explaining that it was okay that I sent blades ranging from concealable 2" neck knives to 18" parangs to the homes of various middle aged chunky bearded blokes who like whittling sticks and bimbling off to the woods for a sneaky fire and brew, because there are some US TV shows where people try to live on an island for a cash prize! Nope. I don't think that would go down well.

 

[C_Claycomb]

Rather than trying to argue that you sent knives for a sport, it would be better to use one of these.

16 Defences to offence under section 15

(1) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 15 to prove
that they took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to
avoid the commission of the offence.

(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 15 to prove
that the bladed product was designed or manufactured for the buyer in
accordance with specifications provided by the buyer.

(3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 15 to prove
that—

(a) the bladed product was adapted for the buyer before its delivery in
accordance with specifications provided by the buyer, and

(b) the adaptations were made to enable or facilitate the use of the product
by the buyer or its use for a particular purpose.​

 

[Janne]

I am sorry to hear your lifes will become far more complicated!

In the beginning, before the procedures get streamlined at least.

If I was you I would buy a bunch of knives I might want ( plus a couple extra) now and weather out the beginning.