The point of the expression, in my mind, has less to do with religion than it does with expressing the point that under extreme circumstances people's most dearly held perspective can change.
For the record, I'm an atheist, OK?
Why even Ray Mears dies alone in the subarctic -- part 1
- Thread starter dogwood
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The point of the expression, in my mind, has less to do with religion than it does with expressing the point that under extreme circumstances people's most dearly held perspective can change.
For the record, I'm an atheist, OK?
Firecrest, I assume you're joking, but just in case....
Different species and thus irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Cows do fine on grass too. If that's all you ate, you would die.
Our closest primate relative, the chimpanzee eats meat often. But since chimps are different species too, they are also irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
As mentioned, I happen to be a vegetarian and have been for a very long time.
But I harbor no illusions about the fact that I can afford to be a vegetarian because of the bounty provided by agriculture and, for that matter, food transportation systems that grant me easy access to high quality vegetable protein.
Surviving in the wild, you have to go back to consuming animal protein -- guaranteed.
I really don't want to hijack what's been an interesting thread so I'm happy to leave it at that.
I think if the emphasis was on the "can" bit in the statement, I'd be happier.
I find the entire concept of actually eating meat distasteful, and I always have done. I ate it under duress and parential nagging as a child and as a young adult only because I was told I had to in order to be healthy.
Frankly, that health issue is a load of tosh.
I can imagine no circumstances now where I could actually put it into my mouth and keep it down.
To live wild as a vegetarian...........choose your habitat, have enough wandering space and some way to store a bountiful harvest, such as was done in the past by dry roasting hazelnuts, and yes, I think it's possible to survive. I don't think it'd be easy though, and I think it would take a lot of knowledge and really being aware of the seasonality of things.
I do know that given time to establish a garden/ vegetable plot, it's entirely possible to live healthily vegan let alone vegetarian, in the UK
Dogwood, I reckon that the best way to ensure survival until rescued is to be carrying a fair load of extra calories stored as fat
Moral of the tale is, "Don't fly skinny! "
cheers,
Toddy
I find the entire concept of actually eating meat distasteful, and I always have done. I ate it under duress and parential nagging as a child and as a young adult only because I was told I had to in order to be healthy.
Frankly, that health issue is a load of tosh.
I can imagine no circumstances now where I could actually put it into my mouth and keep it down.
To live wild as a vegetarian...........choose your habitat, have enough wandering space and some way to store a bountiful harvest, such as was done in the past by dry roasting hazelnuts, and yes, I think it's possible to survive. I don't think it'd be easy though, and I think it would take a lot of knowledge and really being aware of the seasonality of things.
I do know that given time to establish a garden/ vegetable plot, it's entirely possible to live healthily vegan let alone vegetarian, in the UK
Dogwood, I reckon that the best way to ensure survival until rescued is to be carrying a fair load of extra calories stored as fat
Moral of the tale is, "Don't fly skinny! "
cheers,
Toddy
From my experience of peoples in the developing world who still live in "tribal" type conditions, living off what they could grow or hunt/fish (plus coca cola...), skinny is the norm and I have stayed in areas where if they miss a days fishing they are VERY hungry indeed and food begging from the "Abruni" (visiting whites) is the norm.
Here because I was old (in my forties at the time) and - to put it bluntly - fat I was seen as having very high status and given more respect than those superior to me, in the organisation I was working, for who were younger and fitter (slim!) than I was.
The locals were frankly puzzled that someone who was obviously a man of import could be doing manual labour while others who were not doing so well gave the orders!
This seems to show that in such conditions, in modern times, that living off the land - even with a historic lore and a "tribe" to help - is not easy.
If you are not lucky/good at what you do you starve or die young, the lucky/clever live longer and get fat and are revered for their abilities!
Here because I was old (in my forties at the time) and - to put it bluntly - fat I was seen as having very high status and given more respect than those superior to me, in the organisation I was working, for who were younger and fitter (slim!) than I was.
The locals were frankly puzzled that someone who was obviously a man of import could be doing manual labour while others who were not doing so well gave the orders!
This seems to show that in such conditions, in modern times, that living off the land - even with a historic lore and a "tribe" to help - is not easy.
If you are not lucky/good at what you do you starve or die young, the lucky/clever live longer and get fat and are revered for their abilities!
If you are not lucky/good at what you do you starve or die young, the lucky/clever live longer and get fat and are revered for their abilities![/QUOTE]
In that case then John, they'd probably view me as some sort of prodigy.
Cheers, Michael.
In that case then John, they'd probably view me as some sort of prodigy.
Cheers, Michael.
Marvellous thread. I'm going to create an excel spreadsheet so I can evaluate how much fat I need to put on for my next adventure. mmmmm.......how much increase in calorie burn should I allow for carrying each pound of additional body fat?
No idea, but I do know it's the most efficient way of carrying and caring for those calories.
An anthropologist told me that the reason the Polynesians were so effective at long distance sea travel was simply because they were 'big' people
cheers,
Toddy
An anthropologist told me that the reason the Polynesians were so effective at long distance sea travel was simply because they were 'big' people
cheers,
Toddy
forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
No idea, but I do know it's the most efficient way of carrying and caring for those calories.
An anthropologist told me that the reason the Polynesians were so effective at long distance sea travel was simply because they were 'big' people
But of course long distance sailing is special; lots of time to just wait around, perhaps a little fishng, but very little hard work.
What you actually want is a small amount of fat -- less than 10 pounds overweight. For humans, fat is simply a reserve for emergencies, not a primary source of calories.
If you go above that, you actually burn more calories doing simple tasks -- imagine carrying a 20 or 30 pound backpack everywhere you go... Simple camp duties and hunting/foraging suddenly require the same high calorie burn of moving camp!
The explanation of why being too overweight is a net negative for both an individual trying to survive in the wild or a tribe trying to survive is kind of involved. If people are really interested in that sub topic of this, let me know and I'll do the math on it to demonstrate.
However, the simplest way to explain it is that leaner people require fewer net calories to sustain body weight -- and in large measure, sustaining body weight is the name of the game.
As others have noted in this thread, there is a really good reason that nearly all people -- primitive or not -- living off the land are lean: it's significantly more efficient.
If you go above that, you actually burn more calories doing simple tasks -- imagine carrying a 20 or 30 pound backpack everywhere you go... Simple camp duties and hunting/foraging suddenly require the same high calorie burn of moving camp!
The explanation of why being too overweight is a net negative for both an individual trying to survive in the wild or a tribe trying to survive is kind of involved. If people are really interested in that sub topic of this, let me know and I'll do the math on it to demonstrate.
However, the simplest way to explain it is that leaner people require fewer net calories to sustain body weight -- and in large measure, sustaining body weight is the name of the game.
As others have noted in this thread, there is a really good reason that nearly all people -- primitive or not -- living off the land are lean: it's significantly more efficient.
Are there many (any) vegan diet tribes living in the wild? I'm not talking about some bunch of tipi dwelling aged hippies, I mean 'real' tribes?
Dogwood wasnt fat prized by native people? Also wasnt every part of the animal consumed including marrow fat also?
I don't think there are 'tribes' as such, but the Jains......many of them are, and many Bhuddists too consume no animal products. They all farm though,
cheers,
Toddy
cheers,
Toddy
This entirely depends on where you store your fat. If it is close to your centre of gravity, it will require less calories to carry around, and some peoples evolved ways of carrying bodyfat without interferance with day to day activity
Incidentally many peoples of the world are governed by starvation genes, so no one model of calorie intake or correct weight advice can be correct. Asian men are twice as likely to have a heart attack on a western diet than a westerner because they have genes from a part of the world frequented by famine, in times of plenty (or nowadays when in Mcdonalds) they bodies store more fat than caucasians do.
And here I was all set to get a gorilla and turn him loose in the brooks range to test your hypothesis.
Thanks for that. A very interesting read, fortunately it's not a situation I am likely to find myself in... I hate the cold, UK winters I can tolerate, just! but when it gets down to minus double figures I'm in favour of hibernating. I spent 12 weeks inside the arctic circle during the cod wars when I was in the RN I was so glad I was working in the boiler room hugging the front of the boiler to keep warm
