When is kit kit?

[stephendedwards]

I was in a major outdoor retailer the other day in a well known North Wales town . I was wearing my old faithful cotton jacket (Tog24) It is nothing special apart from being light weight and having pockets but in the warm weather it is enough. Anyway old faithful is getting a bit tatty and due for retirement. I asked the nice man if he had something similar. To which his reply was cough " we don't stock that sort of garment here" "All our stuff is serious gear" Now apart from the obvious BS nature of the reply it got me thinking. The shop in question had no natural fibred products that I could find. So my question is two fold, what is it about poly/nylon that makes it "outdoors" and when is kit kit?

Steve

 

[johnboy]

I had a similar thing happen top me in the Climbers Shop in Ambleside..

My original Helly Hansen field Jacket was looking pretty threadbare and I asked if they stocked a new version to be told that the fleeces they stocked were 'technical' whatever that means...

I think the outdoors industry moved away from 'natural materials' in the 70's as man made fibres became more widespread. I can remember my first fibre pile Jacket a 'Javalin' IIRC and at the time it was very good and considered to be top kit warm when wet lightweight and tough.. Folk were happy to give up Ventile and Japara and move into PU nylon and then into Goretex etc...

Here in NZ outdoor gear is just outdoor gear and the whole thing is far less 'fussy' than in the UK. The shops carry a range of stuff and there is a lot of merino no Ventile and lots of Goretex and the down jacket seems to have made a comeback...

 

[lavrentyuk]

I went looking for a fleece and found that they were 'interactive'. What the hell is an interactive fleece I wondered ? I tried talking to it, but there was no response. Didn't even have batteries never mind a mains lead or solar panels so I left it in the shop.

There is an appalling amount of bllx in the outdoor kit industry these days, and Betws y Coed is at the heart of it.

I hope you have this years correct colour for your rope, or you are just so passe.

Richard
(Wax cotton and a cheap fleece/woolly jumper)

 

[Shambling Shaman]

If you tell them its a "Retro" jacket they would most likely offer you 200 quid for it

Its harder and harder to find good equipment shops, most are clothing/fashion based and the sales staff have never got there designer hill boots muddy

 

[phaserrifle]

I went looking for a fleece and found that they were 'interactive'. What the hell is an interactive fleece I wondered ? I tried talking to it, but there was no response. Didn't even have batteries never mind a mains lead or solar panels so I left it in the shop.

far as I know, it basically means that it will work with the jackets that are fitted with zips so you can use a fleece as a liner.
I belive (although may be wrong) that this is an industry standard, since my reggata fleece fits in my peter storm jacket.

 

[tobes01]

I think Ray Jardine's had the definitive word on over-technical kit.

http://www.rayjardine.com/papers/cannonballs/index.htm

 

[avalon]

I have tried several military jackets over the years and have a Gortex type jacket with a removable fleece for cold wet weather, but for dry weather, my light brown cotton coat from Asda is as good as any of military ones I have owned.

 

[Tony]

I think that part of the problem is that often the staff only know about what they stock (and sometimes not much about that) So you go into a shop with a ventile jacket on and many have no idea and automatically assume that the jacket is substandard to theirs due to it being cotton, often not a well known brand etc etc

You even get that with the likes of Paramo and buffalo gear sometimes, some people don't accept that they are 'as good' as other brands and products, I've had high position outdoor retailers explain to me that a paramo jacket isn't waterproof and only the likes of gortex is waterproof and breathable, I own a paramo and i know it's waterproof, it's just a different system to the one they favour.

really, unless we're standing naked we're using kit, no matter what it is, the old timers often used the most up to date kit they had, few looked at stuff and said, no, it's better that i do it the harder way. There does seem to be a mid way point where you've got the right amount of kit and you're completing the picture of what an outdoorsman should be rather than a tech'd up hiker but that's often decided by other that have issues with what they deem as too much kit and a betrayal of bushcraft and what it should be when in reality it's an opinion.

We as a species have always made kit, the best kit to suit our environment and the tasks at hand, to that end i'd say where what you want, take what you want and if you're more comfortable wearing the stuff you like rather than tech fabrics etc then do so, I love my ventile, it's not always the most appropriate but most of the time it's a fantastic bit of kit

 

[Ogri the trog]

I like the Ray Jardine artical - I've been suckered into some purchases myself over the years.
I like to make my own kit nowadays, learning the skills and improvising from other resources - something that I am constantly reminded of is the balance between "Form" and "Function" - if it looks right for the situation it is in, it probably is right.
However, modern commercial enterprises (to my mind) have got the balance tipped the wrong way in favour of "Form" and only add functionality through optional specifications and extra cost implications.
If your kit conforms to a fine balance of "Function and Form" then it is good kit, but if you allow "Form" to outweigh "Function" then it is someone elses idea of kit not yours. Each person will have their own ideals and justifications for the kit that they carry.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[Mikey P]

I think in the case of the OP's cotton jacket, there is some science behind the answer. I have to admit though, I don't think the guy has been to 'sales school'.

Anyone that spends a lot of time in the outdoors will be aware of the critical requirement to maintain body core temperature (see Cody Lundin's book if you don't believe me). Certainly in Scotland and other ... er ... 'damp' climates, cotton is seen as the 'Devil's Cloth' because of it's exceptionally poor insulating properties when it's wet. Any serious hillwalker would no more be seen in cotton clothing on the hills than they would be in jeans. Cotton takes ages to dry and sucks heat from your body as it does so.

Nevertheless, on a dry day, or when you can be sure that you can keep cotton dry, there is no issue with its use outdoors as it is a tough and comfortable material. In fact, the OP states that his jacket is for warm days, so he clearly understands the limitations of the garment. Furthermore, ventile is a type of cotton fabric, as are Barbour, etc. When waxed/proofed, cotton garments can suitable for outdoor use in the rain. I agree with Tony that my BCUK Ventile is a versatile and robust garment that sees a lot of use because of it's breathable and showerproof qualities, not to mention the excellent cut and design.

However, for mountaineering and serious hillwalking, I am dressed head to foot in artificial fibres as they are warm, stay warm(er) when wet, waterproof (though not necessarily as breathable), tough and light in weight. I have a totally different set of clothes for bushcrafting activities as, generally, I will have better access to shelter, a fire (possibly), and will not be working aerobically as hard for as long.

There will always be a place for innovation and new materials and products. I agree that the outdoor industry is as bad as any other when it comes to promoting the next best thing, but they all have a living to make and to sell more clothes/gear, it's good to create a market for them.

I reckon that you always have to be the educated consumer - be open to advice but be able to spot the emperor's new clothes, and don't disregard newer, advanced artificial fibres because they don't fit the 'bushcrafting image'. Adapt and be flexible.

And, if they won't sell you the cotton jacket you want, take your custom to somewhere who will.

 

[teflon]

What's 'technical' about a walk in the woods?

edit: I'm thinking that an 'educated consumer' may be the one who keeps their money in their pocket until the need for something presents itself, at which point price is probably secondary.

edit: edit: Perhaps an 'educated consumer' is really the perfect consumer - owned body and soul by the marketing department. It's a thought.

 

[rik_uk3]

Mickey P summed it up well in that its horses for courses. The last thing you want to be wearing up on the exposed hills of North Wales or the Beacons is cotton or ventile etc, you want light weight, tough, wind proof and waterproof kit; its a different world there than tramping around in the relative shelter of woodland.

Contrary to the belief held by some here not all hill walkers or mountaineers are idiots, they pick their kit with care as I'm sure we do.

 

[Tadpole]

I think a lot of the problem is, all good kit is expensive either in the time it takes to make it for yourself (and to learn the skills in the first place) or in cash money.
So we try and buy kit of all trades, clothes that work for the plains as much as they work in the hills, and like all multi-tools across the world, they do most jobs, just not as good as a tool that has just the one use, be it a screw-driver or a 100% water proof jacket. Modern kit is about compromise.
Water proof yes we can do that but it will not breathe.
Windproof but breathable yes we can do that, but takes an age to dry and is heavy.
Light weight, yes, but noisy and tears happen in a heat beat.
The success of the compromise, is in direct proportion to the engineering, and final cost of the garment.
As a boy I had a cotton windproof, that came to my knees (meeting quite nicely the tops of my gaiters, but if there was a hint of rain I had to carry water proofs, either a poncho or the traditional yellow water proofs, if it was warm I had to carry both in my bag.
Now there are materials that do it all, just not necessary as good as the two combined.

 

[teflon]

I'm an 'educated consumer'. And if you don't believe me, I've got a mountain of stuff to prove it. 8[

 

[wattsy]

most hillwalking/mountaineering kit is man-made fibres because they insulate better than most natural fibres when wet. i think patagonia do a lot of cotton products if you want something along those lines but it is expensive

 

[darrenh]

I think in the case of the OP's cotton jacket, there is some science behind the answer. I have to admit though, I don't think the guy has been to 'sales school'.

Anyone that spends a lot of time in the outdoors will be aware of the critical requirement to maintain body core temperature (see Cody Lundin's book if you don't believe me). Certainly in Scotland and other ... er ... 'damp' climates, cotton is seen as the 'Devil's Cloth' because of it's exceptionally poor insulating properties when it's wet. Any serious hillwalker would no more be seen in cotton clothing on the hills than they would be in jeans. Cotton takes ages to dry and sucks heat from your body as it does so.

Nevertheless, on a dry day, or when you can be sure that you can keep cotton dry, there is no issue with its use outdoors as it is a tough and comfortable material. In fact, the OP states that his jacket is for warm days, so he clearly understands the limitations of the garment. Furthermore, ventile is a type of cotton fabric, as are Barbour, etc. When waxed/proofed, cotton garments can suitable for outdoor use in the rain. I agree with Tony that my BCUK Ventile is a versatile and robust garment that sees a lot of use because of it's breathable and showerproof qualities, not to mention the excellent cut and design.

However, for mountaineering and serious hillwalking, I am dressed head to foot in artificial fibres as they are warm, stay warm(er) when wet, waterproof (though not necessarily as breathable), tough and light in weight. I have a totally different set of clothes for bushcrafting activities as, generally, I will have better access to shelter, a fire (possibly), and will not be working aerobically as hard for as long.

There will always be a place for innovation and new materials and products. I agree that the outdoor industry is as bad as any other when it comes to promoting the next best thing, but they all have a living to make and to sell more clothes/gear, it's good to create a market for them.

I reckon that you always have to be the educated consumer - be open to advice but be able to spot the emperor's new clothes, and don't disregard newer, advanced artificial fibres because they don't fit the 'bushcrafting image'. Adapt and be flexible.

And, if they won't sell you the cotton jacket you want, take your custom to somewhere who will.

I think that part of the problem is that often the staff only know about what they stock (and sometimes not much about that) So you go into a shop with a ventile jacket on and many have no idea and automatically assume that the jacket is substandard to theirs due to it being cotton, often not a well known brand etc etc

You even get that with the likes of Paramo and buffalo gear sometimes, some people don't accept that they are 'as good' as other brands and products, I've had high position outdoor retailers explain to me that a paramo jacket isn't waterproof and only the likes of gortex is waterproof and breathable, I own a paramo and i know it's waterproof, it's just a different system to the one they favour.

really, unless we're standing naked we're using kit, no matter what it is, the old timers often used the most up to date kit they had, few looked at stuff and said, no, it's better that i do it the harder way. There does seem to be a mid way point where you've got the right amount of kit and you're completing the picture of what an outdoorsman should be rather than a tech'd up hiker but that's often decided by other that have issues with what they deem as too much kit and a betrayal of bushcraft and what it should be when in reality it's an opinion.

We as a species have always made kit, the best kit to suit our environment and the tasks at hand, to that end i'd say where what you want, take what you want and if you're more comfortable wearing the stuff you like rather than tech fabrics etc then do so, I love my ventile, it's not always the most appropriate but most of the time it's a fantastic bit of kit

most hillwalking/mountaineering kit is man-made fibres because they insulate better than most natural fibres when wet. i think patagonia do a lot of cotton products if you want something along those lines but it is expensive

Hi guys this is my first reply to a post and i dont want to cause a storm with it.Paramo is NOT waterproof but directional, it has no HH rating so cannot be classed as waterproof. and wool when wet insulates better that 99% of man made fibres with possibly the exception of polartec fabrics which are hollow therefore trap air inside the particle ect ect but cheap fleeces in general dont insulate better then wool. regards Darren

 

[Paul_B]

Another point to look at is design. Performance is not just selection of the right materials its how they are put together. That is why interactive fleece/waterproof systems are not ideal. They will work but since you zip the warmth layer (fleece) in some way outside of the zip of the waterproof layer you end up with a gap in the insulation layer. This is not an issue for a walk in a town park but on the Cairngorms in a hoolie it is not ideal at all.

Also the above poster is beiong a little simplistic by saying that wool is warmer than all synthetics apart from polartec on a few counts. First off there are some very good synthetic own brand fibres out there that perform as well as polartec although polartect probably wouldn't have you believe that. Second wool (and I assume you mean the fine fibre merino form of wool) can become overloaded with moisture in which case it can no longer absorb the moisture and since it does not transmit the moisture as effectively as a lot of synthetics. That means it will feel colder than the equivalent weight of a synthetic material when wet. I personally find that merino wool is best in the cold weather since once you start sweating heavily into it you get uncomfortable. Of course my only merino wool layer is under crackers and since I don't wear full waterproofs often only fast drying synthetic / softshell trousers they tend to dry out slower than the trousers in fact when I'm wet through I find they act as a reservoir of moisture to keep the outer layer wet whereas areas they are not in contact dry out sooner.

AS far as "technical" goes there is two ways of looking at it. One as a marketing BS which is what most sales staff use it as and as BS based on science which is what I try to use. You will ifnd staff in outdoors shops who folow the latter direction but mostly in areas where there is a big outdoors community or visitng activists. Ambleside is one, Fort Bill is another, Keswick as both sides and Betys has the marketing BSers IMHO. Although there are tyhe exception in this everywhere. Just get your rdar attuned to it and let them hang themselves then correct them with the truth. That;'s what I do and you soon get treated with respect and sold what you need not the BS product they get more bonus on. It has been fun in the past seeing how quickly a salesman can back pedal to say the opposite to what he had been saying for ten minutes previously with just one very short question that shows you know what is what.

 

[Kerne]

I think Ray Jardine's had the definitive word on over-technical kit.

http://www.rayjardine.com/papers/cannonballs/index.htm

Excellent!

I think a lot of outdoor kit is dominated at the design stage by the climbing/mountaineering community and this influence trickles down to the shops (often staffed by climbers). The adverts that are aimed at "mountain athletes" seduce so many that you see people walking the Ridgeway or a coastal path in kit Hillary could only have dreamed of. On the other hand, there is loads of kit available at prices most people can afford nowadays (and the sales staff are on commission!) Perhaps we have to accept that we are a specialist market if we want to wear natural fibres and "old fashoioned" kit. I wear a mixture of both depending on two factors: do does it do its job well? Can I afford it?

PS: Ray Jardine makes most of his own kit - this is the way forward!

 

[Mikey P]

Excellent!

I think a lot of outdoor kit is dominated at the design stage by the climbing/mountaineering community and this influence trickles down to the shops (often staffed by climbers). The adverts that are aimed at "mountain athletes" seduce so many that you see people walking the Ridgeway or a coastal path in kit Hillary could only have dreamed of.

Good point - it's interesting to see that US manufacturers are starting to make jackets specifically for the UK walking market. Climbing jackets are necessarily short and close cut; walking jackets are thigh-length and have more room. Shows that they must be listening to someone!!!

Also, yeah, wool is great but it does eventually wet out and then stays wet and weighs a ton. Having said that, many mountaineers still used Dachstein mitts and they are pretty damn good.

 

[Bumpy]

a major outdoor retailer the other day in a well known North Wales town .
Steve

Name and shame?