Tadpole said:I'm not a vegetarian. To argue that we should eat meat because our "cave man" ancestors ate meat is arguably as irrational.
Haha touche.
Next time I'm in Bristol for Thai I'll buy you a beer!
Vegetarians and vegans
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Haha touche.
Next time I'm in Bristol for Thai I'll buy you a beer!
Blast!!! I just typed a bloody long reply and it got lost in posting.
So to summarise as i can't be bothered to post again, I don't each much meat as I spend all day chopping up rotting human corpses, and if that ain't enough to put you off, then nothing is! Oh, and I actually prefer the taste of veggy stuff, but do sometimes crave meat and eat it. No probs really...
So to summarise as i can't be bothered to post again, I don't each much meat as I spend all day chopping up rotting human corpses, and if that ain't enough to put you off, then nothing is! Oh, and I actually prefer the taste of veggy stuff, but do sometimes crave meat and eat it. No probs really...
The evolutionary and anthropological arguments for whether or not a vegetarian diet is "natural" are interesting (genuinely so) but not really that relevant (and I doubt if we will reach consensus in this thread anyway). It doesn't matter whether or not our ancestors have traditionally eaten flesh, as today we can live healthily without it and we are in the lucky position of being able to chose whether or not to eat meat without having our decision forced by hunger, availability or poverty.
I am happy to concede that it would be damned difficult to live off the land and maintain a purely vegetarian diet just through foraging. Luckily for me, I live in a reasonably comfortable part of London with a good choice of foods available and the only consequence of not eating meat is the occasional grim meal in a restaurant
There does seem to be a lot more around these days. I think this is a combination of many factors:
Food scares - salmonella, BSE, hormones in meat etc.
Increased awareness/publicity about diet and weight control
Promotion of the mediterranean-style low-meat, high veg, high-fish diets
Concern about cholesterol/animal fats and heart disease
More interest in cooking and food in general and a move away from "traditional" british food (chips, pies, sausages, roast meat etc)
Greater levels of foreign travel and exposure to new foods
Increased availability of foreign foods and resaurants.
Celebrity endorsements
Increased awareness of animal welfare and intensive farming issues
Better choice in restaurants.
Easy availability of meat-style foods (Quorn etc) that are acceptable (tolerable?) to former meat eaters or those catering for a vegi in the family.
For the record, I don't eat meat because I don't like the stuff. I think it is something to do with the texture and the nasty bits of fat and gristle. I will eat the occasional bit of fish or seafood (it makes it so much easier when travelling) but prefer not to if I can help it. I am in good health, have never had any serious illness and very rarely get colds etc so the diet doesn't seem to have had any negative impact on me so far. I like animals but I wouldn't call myself a "bunny hugger" though - I have hunted in the past and had a Saturday job in a butchers shop for a while (boy was that a lousy job - emptying the bone bags and scrubbing the blocks
)
I have found it a bit surprising that it always seems to be meat-eaters who are the most vociferous on this topic; maybe we just don't have the strength to argue
I am very surprised at how many vegi people there are on this forum though.
I am happy to concede that it would be damned difficult to live off the land and maintain a purely vegetarian diet just through foraging. Luckily for me, I live in a reasonably comfortable part of London with a good choice of foods available and the only consequence of not eating meat is the occasional grim meal in a restaurant
There does seem to be a lot more around these days. I think this is a combination of many factors:
Food scares - salmonella, BSE, hormones in meat etc.
Increased awareness/publicity about diet and weight control
Promotion of the mediterranean-style low-meat, high veg, high-fish diets
Concern about cholesterol/animal fats and heart disease
More interest in cooking and food in general and a move away from "traditional" british food (chips, pies, sausages, roast meat etc)
Greater levels of foreign travel and exposure to new foods
Increased availability of foreign foods and resaurants.
Celebrity endorsements
Increased awareness of animal welfare and intensive farming issues
Better choice in restaurants.
Easy availability of meat-style foods (Quorn etc) that are acceptable (tolerable?) to former meat eaters or those catering for a vegi in the family.
For the record, I don't eat meat because I don't like the stuff. I think it is something to do with the texture and the nasty bits of fat and gristle. I will eat the occasional bit of fish or seafood (it makes it so much easier when travelling) but prefer not to if I can help it. I am in good health, have never had any serious illness and very rarely get colds etc so the diet doesn't seem to have had any negative impact on me so far. I like animals but I wouldn't call myself a "bunny hugger" though - I have hunted in the past and had a Saturday job in a butchers shop for a while (boy was that a lousy job - emptying the bone bags and scrubbing the blocks
)I have found it a bit surprising that it always seems to be meat-eaters who are the most vociferous on this topic; maybe we just don't have the strength to argue
I am very surprised at how many vegi people there are on this forum though.
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
falling rain said:
It's not a case of 'not being prepared to kill and prepare it themselves' that's being too simplistic. That is simply not possible to do. At least not in Britain. I need a licence/permission to hunt, trap or shoot any animal here, and many methods are completely illegal. I have caught many hundreds of fish that I've eaten, and always replace into the sea where possible any fish I don't wish to eat. Even if the fish is dead because of a swallowed hook etc it always goes back as something will have a feed from it.[/QUOTE]
Yes I wasn't being clear. What I meant those whoa re not prepared to kill and prepare their food at least in theory have no right to criticise the vegetraian or the meat eater who hunts/fishes his own
BOD said:
Yes I wasn't being clear. What I meant those whoa re not prepared to kill and prepare their food at least in theory have no right to criticise the vegetraian or the meat eater who hunts/fishes his own[/QUOTE]
I expect a lot more people would become vegetarian if they had to kill and prepare their own meat.
I too was surprised at how many bushcraft folk are vegetarian. On reflection though, Thoreau was pretty much vegetarian (and wrote about it in his classic Walden), and many environmentalists are vegetarian too.
I did have a patient who was fruitarian - he only ate fruit as that was a 'gift' from the plant, and did not kill the plant. As a diet it is nutritionally incomplete.
I did have a patient who was fruitarian - he only ate fruit as that was a 'gift' from the plant, and did not kill the plant. As a diet it is nutritionally incomplete.
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Doc said:
And that in itself brings up a whole new arguement in terms of expliotation and abuse of plant....que the giggle in the backrow
but it has been proven past doubt that plants feel pain and suffering in the same phsycal sence that animals do. They have just as much right to life as animals and they are effected by chemicals and enviromental changes too. There was a series of experiments done with special types of microphones where they were actually able to hear plants "cry" out in pain when they were cut or ripped.
We all understnad how a tree weeps sap to heal itself just as we do with blood when we are cut...and plants die and rot just the same as animals.
So why not the same arguements for not eating plants either? In an ideal world should we not stick to friuts and nuts that are offered by the plants as gifts?
It also kind of ruins Toddy's statement earlier that she won't eat anything that's dead as it's simply not true unless you discount plants as having lived...which you can't rationally do. And the phrase "meat is murder" is just as sellective and narrow minded.
The above might sound silly and far fetched, however, if you go back in time and tell people you won't eat animals as you don't believe eating them is fair or proper I suspect you'd have been subject to the same dismissive giggling that this post will no doubt produce
There...see, I'm a man ahead of my time (and also a hypocrite as I will still be eating both plant and meat foods
).Cheers,
Bam.
I do take your point Bam, but the *Dead* is just how a lot of veggies perceive meat....a bacon roll is a "dead pig bun" for instance. It's an animate unanimate kind of thing.
I have no issues over the use of animals for food other than that if we breed and farm them then it ought to be as good a natural life as we can give them and that the killing ought to be as quick and stress free as possible.......modern factory farming and abattoirs are a disgrace even though the UK ones are amongst the best in the world.
The only fruitarian I knew ate beads, grains and nuts too, reckoning that the plants produced so many seeds intending some to be eaten and spread in the resultant manure.
Cheers,
Toddy
I have no issues over the use of animals for food other than that if we breed and farm them then it ought to be as good a natural life as we can give them and that the killing ought to be as quick and stress free as possible.......modern factory farming and abattoirs are a disgrace even though the UK ones are amongst the best in the world.
The only fruitarian I knew ate beads, grains and nuts too, reckoning that the plants produced so many seeds intending some to be eaten and spread in the resultant manure.
Cheers,
Toddy
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Toddy said:
Agreed and understood.....but why do you stop at only discribing meat that way? Why not say I won't eat dead pig in a bun but I will eat boiled alive carrots in a bun?
I'm not saying you're wrong in anyway or that you shouldn't have that view (you can view things however you want) what I'm asking is why are you so sellective in your view?
(and I'm asking in a nice way not to be a pain
)Thanks,
Bam.
Hi Folks,
Did you see this...
Britain
The TimesJuly 29, 2006
It's meat and no veg if the heat goes on
By Valerie Elliott
Very high temperatures have disrupted the growing cycle - and heavy rain could even make things worse for food producers
AS BRITAIN and Europe have been basking in high temperatures this summer, staple vegetables have been scorched and shrivelled, threatening food shortages and higher prices.
NI_MPU('middle');Industry experts believe that the shortages and poor harvest could be as catastrophic as that of the 1976 drought.
The highest temperature on record for July in 95 years was in the South East ten days ago when temperatures reached 36.3C (97.3F), but favourite foods such as peas and potatoes have stopped growing in the heat. There are even fears for the Christmas supply of Brussels sprouts because production in some areas is down as much as 40 per cent.
The main potato harvest is not due for another three weeeks, but early British potatoes have hit record trade prices of £150 a tonne compared with £109 last year, and there are fears that, with too much or too little rainfall in the next few weeks, this years yield may be badly hit. Growers, supermarkets and food companies are extremely nervous about the market supply and there are particular fears about potatoes.
In Europe the potato crop could be as much as 40 per cent down. Although the yield in early potatoes was down only 12 per cent in Britain, only 60 per cent of the main crop here is regularly irrigated, leaving question marks over the rest.
The price of a bag of chips, which varies between 95p and £1.50 across the country, is almost certain to rise. About one million tonnes of frozen chips a year are imported from the Netherlands and Belgium, but with stocks down on mainland Europe, supplies will be tight.
A spokeswoman for the National Federation of Fish Friers said that members were very anxious about rising prices and future supply.
Roman Cools, secretary-general of the European Potato Trade and Processers Association, said: The worst scenario is the present hot weather and the weather promised for next week a drop in temperature and heavy rain. We are worried there will be secondary growth on the potato flowers, and once the secondary potato is established, the main tuber potato becomes filled with water.
Fresh green vegetables are also likely to be scarce in the UK and throughout the Continent. At risk are supplies of peas, broad bean, broccoli, cabbage, spinach, cauliflower, onions and baby carrots. There are also problems with courgettes in Eastern Europe.
In Poland, where beans are down 40 per cent and most other greens down 20 per cent, parliament went into recess on Thursday so that politicans could pray for rain.
Susanne Meyer, secretary general of the Brussels-based Organisation of European Industries Transporting Fruit and Vegetables, has told leading food manufacturers that they face shortages of all the main vegetables. She said: The outlook for the autumn is also grim, with cauliflower, carrots, leeks and sprouts most likely to endure a shortfall. Long-range weather forecasts do nothing to encourage hope.
Miss Meyer added that the cold and wet spring had inhibited the sowing and germination of seeds, itself leading to a shorter growing season. She said: The estimated impact of so many weeks without rain leaves the processed vegetables market facing shortages of main vegetables.
In Britain there are even problems with salads. Produce that normally takes 60 to 80 days to grow is now ready for picking within 40 days. The production for baby leaves is down from 28 days to 12 to 14 days. Growers are simply unable to keep up with the patchy cycle, and fear that the onset of rain will lengthen growing periods, leaving empty shelves.
The alert over possible food shortages has been given in Britain by the Processed Vegetable Growers Association (PVGA). About a thousand growers produce some 150,000 tonnes of peas a year, but this year the yield is expected to be down 15 to 20 per cent with a loss of 30,000 tonnes the equivalent of 30 million 1lb bags of frozen peas. Growers are also unable to cope with the fast-maturing of the peas and so have had to leave about 20 per cent of the crop in the ground for use as animal feed. One fifth of the UKs peas go to Birds Eye, which is reviewing its standards to ensure that it receives only the premium peas.
Martin Riggall, chief executive of the PVGA, said that there was also a serious problem with broad beans, and that cauliflowers could be 40 per cent down. He is already in talks with buyers to increase the price of vegetables and fears that without higher prices some growers will have to quit.
Richard Hirst, chairman of the National Farmers Union horticulture board, who grows peas for Birds Eye in Great Yarmouth, said that yield was dwon significantly and that, whereas he produced usually at least two tonnes of peas per acre, this year it was at best 1.75 tonnes.
NI_MPU('middle');He said that shop prices would have to go up to cover the lower yield and the higher production costs. He has had to use seven inches of water on his peas this year compared with an annual average of four inches. Water costs have gone up 25 per cent and electricity used to power irrigation pumps has gone up 50 per cent in three years.
Alastair Ewan, chairman of the UK Brassica Growers Association, said: I dont want to scaremonger but without signficant rainfall in the short term a whole range of vegetables will be hit. He said that supplies were already down for a range of greens but as people were not eating hot vegetables at present consumers had not yet noticed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2290319_1,00.html
LS
Did you see this...
Britain
The TimesJuly 29, 2006
It's meat and no veg if the heat goes on
By Valerie Elliott
Very high temperatures have disrupted the growing cycle - and heavy rain could even make things worse for food producers
NI_MPU('middle');Industry experts believe that the shortages and poor harvest could be as catastrophic as that of the 1976 drought.
The highest temperature on record for July in 95 years was in the South East ten days ago when temperatures reached 36.3C (97.3F), but favourite foods such as peas and potatoes have stopped growing in the heat. There are even fears for the Christmas supply of Brussels sprouts because production in some areas is down as much as 40 per cent.
The main potato harvest is not due for another three weeeks, but early British potatoes have hit record trade prices of £150 a tonne compared with £109 last year, and there are fears that, with too much or too little rainfall in the next few weeks, this years yield may be badly hit. Growers, supermarkets and food companies are extremely nervous about the market supply and there are particular fears about potatoes.
In Europe the potato crop could be as much as 40 per cent down. Although the yield in early potatoes was down only 12 per cent in Britain, only 60 per cent of the main crop here is regularly irrigated, leaving question marks over the rest.
The price of a bag of chips, which varies between 95p and £1.50 across the country, is almost certain to rise. About one million tonnes of frozen chips a year are imported from the Netherlands and Belgium, but with stocks down on mainland Europe, supplies will be tight.
A spokeswoman for the National Federation of Fish Friers said that members were very anxious about rising prices and future supply.
Roman Cools, secretary-general of the European Potato Trade and Processers Association, said: The worst scenario is the present hot weather and the weather promised for next week a drop in temperature and heavy rain. We are worried there will be secondary growth on the potato flowers, and once the secondary potato is established, the main tuber potato becomes filled with water.
Fresh green vegetables are also likely to be scarce in the UK and throughout the Continent. At risk are supplies of peas, broad bean, broccoli, cabbage, spinach, cauliflower, onions and baby carrots. There are also problems with courgettes in Eastern Europe.
In Poland, where beans are down 40 per cent and most other greens down 20 per cent, parliament went into recess on Thursday so that politicans could pray for rain.
Susanne Meyer, secretary general of the Brussels-based Organisation of European Industries Transporting Fruit and Vegetables, has told leading food manufacturers that they face shortages of all the main vegetables. She said: The outlook for the autumn is also grim, with cauliflower, carrots, leeks and sprouts most likely to endure a shortfall. Long-range weather forecasts do nothing to encourage hope.
Miss Meyer added that the cold and wet spring had inhibited the sowing and germination of seeds, itself leading to a shorter growing season. She said: The estimated impact of so many weeks without rain leaves the processed vegetables market facing shortages of main vegetables.
In Britain there are even problems with salads. Produce that normally takes 60 to 80 days to grow is now ready for picking within 40 days. The production for baby leaves is down from 28 days to 12 to 14 days. Growers are simply unable to keep up with the patchy cycle, and fear that the onset of rain will lengthen growing periods, leaving empty shelves.
The alert over possible food shortages has been given in Britain by the Processed Vegetable Growers Association (PVGA). About a thousand growers produce some 150,000 tonnes of peas a year, but this year the yield is expected to be down 15 to 20 per cent with a loss of 30,000 tonnes the equivalent of 30 million 1lb bags of frozen peas. Growers are also unable to cope with the fast-maturing of the peas and so have had to leave about 20 per cent of the crop in the ground for use as animal feed. One fifth of the UKs peas go to Birds Eye, which is reviewing its standards to ensure that it receives only the premium peas.
Martin Riggall, chief executive of the PVGA, said that there was also a serious problem with broad beans, and that cauliflowers could be 40 per cent down. He is already in talks with buyers to increase the price of vegetables and fears that without higher prices some growers will have to quit.
Richard Hirst, chairman of the National Farmers Union horticulture board, who grows peas for Birds Eye in Great Yarmouth, said that yield was dwon significantly and that, whereas he produced usually at least two tonnes of peas per acre, this year it was at best 1.75 tonnes.
NI_MPU('middle');He said that shop prices would have to go up to cover the lower yield and the higher production costs. He has had to use seven inches of water on his peas this year compared with an annual average of four inches. Water costs have gone up 25 per cent and electricity used to power irrigation pumps has gone up 50 per cent in three years.
Alastair Ewan, chairman of the UK Brassica Growers Association, said: I dont want to scaremonger but without signficant rainfall in the short term a whole range of vegetables will be hit. He said that supplies were already down for a range of greens but as people were not eating hot vegetables at present consumers had not yet noticed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2290319_1,00.html
LS
MY garden has gone nuclear this year so I have to wonder about the farming. Every blasted thing I sowed, grew 
Even the damned compost heaps that HWMBLT dug into the flower beds have sprouted everything from peppers to spuds and radishes. We're up to four compost heaps trying to keep on top of the weeding and pruning this year, I've even resorted to putting the stuff from the chipper outside the back fence. Only the trees seem to be having problems and the fruit trees like the apple, are full of bumper crops. I guess if the climate changes then we just have to change the crops we use.
Yup, Bam, I confess, I eat carrots alive and I even skin them alive and plunge them into boiling water....but I'd never do it to a lobster.
Every thing lives, everything dies, but we all lead a different life.
Fruitarianism has an appeal
Cheers,
Toddy
Even the damned compost heaps that HWMBLT dug into the flower beds have sprouted everything from peppers to spuds and radishes. We're up to four compost heaps trying to keep on top of the weeding and pruning this year, I've even resorted to putting the stuff from the chipper outside the back fence. Only the trees seem to be having problems and the fruit trees like the apple, are full of bumper crops. I guess if the climate changes then we just have to change the crops we use.Yup, Bam, I confess, I eat carrots alive and I even skin them alive and plunge them into boiling water....but I'd never do it to a lobster.
Every thing lives, everything dies, but we all lead a different life.
Fruitarianism has an appeal
Cheers,
Toddy
bambodoggy
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Toddy said:Yup, Bam, I confess, I eat carrots alive and I even skin them alive and plunge them into boiling water....but I'd never do it to a lobster.
Every thing lives, everything dies, but we all lead a different life.
Fruitarianism has an appeal
You're a very cruel lady Toddy!!!! Back on a serious note, I agree about the growing....my veg and my wife's flowers have gone mad growing this year
. Unfortunately you're also right about the state of a lot of the trees, it's the same round here too 
Although my apple tree and my neighbours plum tree (that helpfully hangs it's plums over my garden ) have a bumper crop on them too.Thanks for your answers,
Bam.
About your news LS
That will probably just mean a small dent in the EU's massive mountains of food wouldn't it? I would be very surprised if we actually experience any real shortage of food. But please, let it be so! That would surely help me in persuading my girlfreind to move back to my homefarm.
Torjus Gaaren
That will probably just mean a small dent in the EU's massive mountains of food wouldn't it? I would be very surprised if we actually experience any real shortage of food. But please, let it be so! That would surely help me in persuading my girlfreind to move back to my homefarm.
Torjus Gaaren
I have a `whatever you can find or scrounge` diet.
I run errands for my Bangladeshi friends, a good thing, they have large families and as soon as they find your reliable they will reccomend you to others. So now I have a big pool of `feeders`
I eat lots of good things most of it very traditional, I mostly eat chicken and rice, (when I get the choice) but other things including a lot of well cooked vegtables.
Funny, Im still not acclimatised to spicy foods...
When I was a child vegtables were overcooked, and so, oddly enough I didnt like them.
Most vegitarians I find arent good at cooking either...food either bland, overcooked mush or overspiced.
a few scraps of bacon in a stir fry, I find makes all the difference.
But most vegitartians are boring, underfed, moralising things, they bring up that tired old chestnut of growing grain for animals (How much land in the world is the for exclusive use of the ALCOHOL industry???) and they all seem to keep CATS and DOGS...
(And what am I going to eat when they take over the world as they threaten too?? Ill be doing those poor starving pets a favour.)
I run errands for my Bangladeshi friends, a good thing, they have large families and as soon as they find your reliable they will reccomend you to others. So now I have a big pool of `feeders`
I eat lots of good things most of it very traditional, I mostly eat chicken and rice, (when I get the choice) but other things including a lot of well cooked vegtables.
Funny, Im still not acclimatised to spicy foods...
When I was a child vegtables were overcooked, and so, oddly enough I didnt like them.
Most vegitarians I find arent good at cooking either...food either bland, overcooked mush or overspiced.
a few scraps of bacon in a stir fry, I find makes all the difference.
But most vegitartians are boring, underfed, moralising things, they bring up that tired old chestnut of growing grain for animals (How much land in the world is the for exclusive use of the ALCOHOL industry???) and they all seem to keep CATS and DOGS...
(And what am I going to eat when they take over the world as they threaten too?? Ill be doing those poor starving pets a favour.)
Tengu said:
Overgeneralise much?
Some of the best food I've ever had was veggie. Some of the worst food I've ever had was meaty. Some people can cook, some people can't. Generalisations like the above are totally without basis.
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