...G' damn Tadpole!!....that was good!!.....well done sah! :You_Rock_ An' Fallin'........was no malice t'wards ye m8......just ended wi' a statement....all's good.
Vegetarians and vegans
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...G' damn Tadpole!!....that was good!!.....well done sah! :You_Rock_ An' Fallin'........was no malice t'wards ye m8......just ended wi' a statement....all's good.
We get patients in with us, "I'm vegetarian", they say, "OK" say I, "But I can eat fish" is often added by them 
Heard in my local Iceland store, "No, darling, you know mommy won't allow you to eat beefburgers, they are full of fat; now put that pack of 50 sausages in the the trolley dear"
A lot has to do with the variety of food available to us, we can afford to be vegetarian these days. We don't have to eat cheap cuts of meat anymore, people have a massive array of fresh food to pick from, so I think the answer to your question is to do with affluence and perhaps "trendy trends".
Me, I love meat and fish
What about the poor buggers in Africa etc growing our cheap sugar snap peas, grapes and the like? I can't afford to buy all organic produce, or have the time and space to grow my own.
Heard in my local Iceland store, "No, darling, you know mommy won't allow you to eat beefburgers, they are full of fat; now put that pack of 50 sausages in the the trolley dear"
A lot has to do with the variety of food available to us, we can afford to be vegetarian these days. We don't have to eat cheap cuts of meat anymore, people have a massive array of fresh food to pick from, so I think the answer to your question is to do with affluence and perhaps "trendy trends".
Me, I love meat and fish
What about the poor buggers in Africa etc growing our cheap sugar snap peas, grapes and the like? I can't afford to buy all organic produce, or have the time and space to grow my own.
Sorry Tadpole, I'd deleted that part of my thread as you posted mate. The body is a big battery for storing fat for when times get hard, but a question for the biologists out there, can a true vegan's body produce fat from a non fat diet?
Yes, because a vegans diet can contain plenty of fat (as tadpole posted earlier) and also their body can, and will, convert excess sugars and carbohydrates in the diet into fatty tissue (as you mention)rik_uk3 said:
A vegan who eats even a fat free diet would put on weight (fat) if they drank 8 pints of Guiness a day without expending that energy intake
Tadpole, you present some interesting facts, but I am not sure how they support you point of view? For instance;
Whilst nuts, say peanuts, may provide an alternative source of protein etc. to meat, that does not mean it is a 'better' source. For instance are they GM peanuts (many are), how were they produced (pesticides, herbicides used), farming techniques (monocultures, hedge removal, low wages)?
I think the principal issue is one of 'how' we produce the food we eat and 'how' it is distributed. Cruel farming methods are as abhorrent as the continual erosion of our wildlife through poor agricultural practices, which kills as many animals and insects and plants by removing habitat etc.
The reason I would choose organic meat over factory farmed meat, is the same reason I would choose to grow my own veg or source it from an organic producer. We all have a choice and whether that choice involves following a meat free path (like around seven percent of the UK population), it is just one choice out of many we face today.
I think, as with everything else, the simple answer is yes. If a vegan eats too much of the wrong food then they will get fat or ill or bothrik_uk3 said:
Pine Nuts for example are 14g (per 100g) protein and 69g (per 100g) fats
Walnuts are 6% protein and 69% fats
Hazelnut 14% protein 64% fats
Coconut 6 % protein and 65% fats,
So if you eat too many nuts or dont dont enough exercise eventually the excess will be stored as fat even Boiled Broccoli has about 8 grams of fat per 100grams. Most of the fats in vegetables and fruits are better for you than any of the fats in meats. but eating too much of anything will adversely affect your health, weight or both
Moonraker said:
Only this last week, whilst camping with my little girl, we had the luxury of collecting and eating organically farmed eggs. My daughter was there as the last of the eggs were laid. The hens were free to roam at will during the day, eating anything they could get their beaks around. Let me tell you that, there was barely five minutes from laying to cooking and the eggs, though smaller and much paler than even commercially produced organic eggs however the taste was out of this world. My taste buds transported me back to when I was about 5 or so and as a family wed have boiled or poached eggs for Sunday tea.
Ethically produced food costs more now, just after the second world, your average food bill as something like 56 percent of the family income. People didnt have much in the way of storage so they shopped almost daily. To make food production economical, the retailer had to source the foods locally, transporting food half way across the country was just not viable local farmers benefited by having a local market.
Nowadays food shopping cost somewhere in the region of 13 percent of the family income, and the food on your table might have been flown/driven hundreds of mile. If people shopped for local produce and we were more willing to spend a bit more on the foods we ate, be it animal or vegetable, then maybe wed get a better tasting better quality of produce. There would be less of an ethical argument for going vegetarian. Happy animals make better food. Happy animals take less looking after, and require less in the way of chemicals and drugs to produce them.
I believe you for a great part Tadpole, but there something:
You seem to exclude the fact that all native cultures out of the tropics and subtropics had to eat a great amount of meat to stay alive as they were pretty much the only concentrated foods available for most of the years. And they were perfectly healthy. Had no deficiencies whatsoever.
Torjus Gaaren
You seem to exclude the fact that all native cultures out of the tropics and subtropics had to eat a great amount of meat to stay alive as they were pretty much the only concentrated foods available for most of the years. And they were perfectly healthy. Had no deficiencies whatsoever.
Torjus Gaaren
Quote - malcolmC : I've got a feeling wildlife can tell, no scientific reseach I know of, just experience in the wild. Any other vegi bushcrafters noticed this effect?
Can tell what malcolmC? Do you mean that wildlife can tell that a person is a vegetarian and therefore poses no threat? Maybe because of the bodily smell being slightly different because of the foods eaten. As already mentioned a vegetarians 'Eartha kit' smells a bit different to a meat/ varied diet eaters although I have to stress I'm no expert in the different smells of poo. Interesting if true though. Maybe a predators odour (which can for these purposes include a meat eating human) smells different to a non threatening species (another herbivorous animal) and the highly refined sense of smell in most animals can pick this up? 
Can tell what malcolmC? Do you mean that wildlife can tell that a person is a vegetarian and therefore poses no threat? Maybe because of the bodily smell being slightly different because of the foods eaten. As already mentioned a vegetarians 'Eartha kit' smells a bit different to a meat/ varied diet eaters although I have to stress I'm no expert in the different smells of poo.
Interesting if true though. Maybe a predators odour (which can for these purposes include a meat eating human) smells different to a non threatening species (another herbivorous animal) and the highly refined sense of smell in most animals can pick this up? 
I don't know if it's true, but it was shared with me many years ago that vegetarianism can only exist in an affluent society. It makes sense I guess. I'm sure that in more primitive times, it would boil down to eating what was on the menu, not what was in the head.
I've wondered how vegetarians get the essential nutritian required for proper health. Do they take suppliments to replace what they are missing? Or, are they even missing any nutrients by not eating meat and fish? Sure they say that they can get the same amino acids, etc., but supplimenting with certain nuts, etc., but those nuts may not always be available. What then?
Was watching the discovery science channel and they were saying that it wasn't until humans started eating meat that they developed the big brains. Are any vegans that are capable, willing to comment on if that is true? 
sorry, couldn't resist. Or, do you think the show was produced by a meat eating bigot?
My wife works in an all natural food store part time and I visit her once in awhile and browse the bulk foodstuffs looking for handouts. Anyways, the pasty looking vegetarians and vegans just don't look healthy to me. Very passive though.
I know a guy that won't eat anything that poo's.
But, everything poo's.
One thought is for sure. We are the same as our paleo ancestors. If our diets and lifestyles were the same, we would be smarter, faster, stronger, etc. What led to our becoming slow, weak and stupid compared to our ancestors? Agriculture!
I've wondered how vegetarians get the essential nutritian required for proper health. Do they take suppliments to replace what they are missing? Or, are they even missing any nutrients by not eating meat and fish? Sure they say that they can get the same amino acids, etc., but supplimenting with certain nuts, etc., but those nuts may not always be available. What then?
Was watching the discovery science channel and they were saying that it wasn't until humans started eating meat that they developed the big brains. Are any vegans that are capable, willing to comment on if that is true?
sorry, couldn't resist. Or, do you think the show was produced by a meat eating bigot? My wife works in an all natural food store part time and I visit her once in awhile and browse the bulk foodstuffs looking for handouts.
Anyways, the pasty looking vegetarians and vegans just don't look healthy to me. Very passive though.I know a guy that won't eat anything that poo's.
But, everything poo's.One thought is for sure. We are the same as our paleo ancestors. If our diets and lifestyles were the same, we would be smarter, faster, stronger, etc. What led to our becoming slow, weak and stupid compared to our ancestors? Agriculture!
Vegetarian:
North American Indian word used to describe poor hunter.
Vegetarian:
A source of protein in a survival situation.
North American Indian word used to describe poor hunter.
Vegetarian:
A source of protein in a survival situation.
RovingArcher said:I don't know if it's true, but it was shared with me many years ago that vegetarianism can only exist in an affluent society. It makes sense I guess. I'm sure that in more primitive times, it would boil down to eating what was on the menu, not what was in the head.
I've wondered how vegetarians get the essential nutritian required for proper health. Do they take suppliments to replace what they are missing? Or, are they even missing any nutrients by not eating meat and fish? Sure they say that they can get the same amino acids, etc., but supplimenting with certain nuts, etc., but those nuts may not always be available. What then?
Was watching the discovery science channel and they were saying that it wasn't until humans started eating meat that they developed the big brains. Are any vegans that are capable, willing to comment on if that is true?
My wife works in an all natural food store part time and I visit her once in awhile and browse the bulk foodstuffs looking for handouts.
I know a guy that won't eat anything that poo's.
One thought is for sure. We are the same as our paleo ancestors. If our diets and lifestyles were the same, we would be smarter, faster, stronger, etc. What led to our becoming slow, weak and stupid compared to our ancestors? Agriculture!
I agree with everything you say. There are no native (hunter-gatherer) societies anywhere that practise vegetarism.
Torjus Gaaren
There is a fundamental flaw in your arguement; humanity. We do not eat everything available to us and every society has dietry restrictions/ geas/ taboos.
Out Paleo ancestors has society, they had the same restrictions.
It is mostly about how and what we *choose* to eat, and since repeated studies of paleo/ hunter gatherers economy show the vast majority of food is gathered by women and children, hunting plays a very small part.
Apart from in the very far North, insects produce a large part of the protein intake of most hunter gatherer families.
Does the modern human eat much insect? No. Therefore the heavy meat dependent diet is un-natural too.
As for the "pasty vegetarians", I've never been so heavy in my life; I spoke to my doctor and he commented that vegetarians frequently are because although our diet is very healthy, it's very rich in protein, carbohydrates and fats. I can happily thrive on less land than a meat eater can and I suspect that the increase in vegetarianism isn't going to stop anytime soon.
Cheers,
Toddy
Out Paleo ancestors has society, they had the same restrictions.
It is mostly about how and what we *choose* to eat, and since repeated studies of paleo/ hunter gatherers economy show the vast majority of food is gathered by women and children, hunting plays a very small part.
Apart from in the very far North, insects produce a large part of the protein intake of most hunter gatherer families.
Does the modern human eat much insect? No. Therefore the heavy meat dependent diet is un-natural too.
As for the "pasty vegetarians", I've never been so heavy in my life; I spoke to my doctor and he commented that vegetarians frequently are because although our diet is very healthy, it's very rich in protein, carbohydrates and fats. I can happily thrive on less land than a meat eater can and I suspect that the increase in vegetarianism isn't going to stop anytime soon.
Cheers,
Toddy
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
pothunter said:
Aren't we getting a little intolerant here?
One could just as easily say
Hunter gatherer = poor agriculturist
Let not get hijacked to ideologies grren vs red meat.
Surely the situation is that we are omnivores and are built so as to be able to survive on almost any type of food from purely meat (Inuit)to purely fruit and nut (Jain).
For the record I am a meat and fish eater who believes that the truly immoral ones are not the vegetarians or hunters but those who eat meat but are not prepared to kill and prepare it themselves.
falling rain said:Just out of interest......... What's with all the vegetarians and vegans there seems to be nowadays? I work in a hospital helpdesk dealing with portering, domestic and catering enquiries and you wouldn't beleive the amount of people that are vegetarian or vegan or don't like this, that or the other. Is it because it's trendy to be a vegetarian or religious beliefs or because they love animals, and won't eat meat because of it? I just don't understand the huge increase in this in the last 10 years or so. I never knew anybody who was a vegetarian back then, now there seems to be lots about.............. What's the John Dory?
Interesting questions/statements, several of my friends over the past ten years have converted from being primarily meat eaters to vegetarians and I have on several occasions asked why? as well.
Their answer is simple, because they wanted to!
But also because of the failings by the Government to provide safe food.
We have had problems with eggs, salmonella.
BSE in cattle.
Bird Flu.
What next I ask?
I am myself omnivorous and try to buy my meat from decent sources.
A friend of mine has his own Butcher's shop and can tell you which farm the animals come from etc, etc.
It is much more expensive than your average supermarket but it is worth it.
But my favourite is Fish, have eaten and enjoyed all sorts of species from cod to moray eel, shark, tuna, the list goes on.
I enjoy some of the vegetarian food as I have had several meals at friends houses, but to be honest most of it I wouldn't give a tuppence for, especially those Quorn based foods.
Really it's all a case of personal taste and your own outlook on how you look at life and what you think is the right way to live.
In other words; Each to their own.
Neil
Toddy said:
The hunter-gatherer societies you are talking about are all tropical or subtropical. It is hard to come by sufficent plant food in the temperate zone and above. And who says the women only gathered plant food. In the northern latiudes they contributed a lot by fishing and trapping. Also I think you would struggle getting enough protein from insects in Britain. Fish and game on the other hand...
Why be so extreme? A steak tastes good, though I am a big fan of relativism that is probably a rule. Even deer eats the occational frog for a little extra protein.
Torjus Gaaren
Come on folks - isn't this a bit redundant? This is simply semantics. Being a vegetarian just means you don't eat meat. It's not like joining the Freemasons!
Personally, I don't understand how people can't enjoy a bacon sandwich or a nice juicy steak. Equally, there are people who don't understand why I enjoy vinegar on my chips. But it's personal choice, simple as that.
Just be glad you can make that choice.
As the original Rock and roller, Rabbie Burns, said:
Some hae meat and canna eat,
And some wad eat that want it;
But we hae meat, and we can eat,
And sae the Lord be thankit.
Personally, I don't understand how people can't enjoy a bacon sandwich or a nice juicy steak. Equally, there are people who don't understand why I enjoy vinegar on my chips. But it's personal choice, simple as that.
Just be glad you can make that choice.
As the original Rock and roller, Rabbie Burns, said:
Some hae meat and canna eat,
And some wad eat that want it;
But we hae meat, and we can eat,
And sae the Lord be thankit.
No, there's enough plant food in the temperate zone to survive quite happily on a veggie diet, and I did make comment that conditions in the far North were different. That said, using a digging stick and prepared to eat insect life really adds to the available foodstuffs.
Not for me, or many others
This arguement has become polarized, it might be lot better to start a new thread that covers the entire range of foods that humans can healthily consume.
Cheers,
Toddy
Not for me, or many others
This arguement has become polarized, it might be lot better to start a new thread that covers the entire range of foods that humans can healthily consume.
Cheers,
Toddy
Yup, I think all of us are so stubborn that I don't believe we are going anywhere. We could try to dig up facts on this stuff, but I am too lazy. Unless anyone else cares I think I'll just leave it there.
Torjus Gaaren
We could try to dig up facts on this stuff, but I am too lazy. Unless anyone else cares I think I'll just leave it there. Torjus Gaaren
Bod - Quote : For the record I am a meat and fish eater who believes that the truly immoral ones are not the vegetarians or hunters but those who eat meat but are not prepared to kill and prepare it themselves.[/QUOTE]
It's not a case of 'not being prepared to kill and prepare it themselves' that's being too simplistic. That is simply not possible to do. At least not in Britain. I need a licence/permission to hunt, trap or shoot any animal here, and many methods are completely illegal. I have caught many hundreds of fish that I've eaten, and always replace into the sea where possible any fish I don't wish to eat. Even if the fish is dead because of a swallowed hook etc it always goes back as something will have a feed from it.
It's not a case of 'not being prepared to kill and prepare it themselves' that's being too simplistic. That is simply not possible to do. At least not in Britain. I need a licence/permission to hunt, trap or shoot any animal here, and many methods are completely illegal. I have caught many hundreds of fish that I've eaten, and always replace into the sea where possible any fish I don't wish to eat. Even if the fish is dead because of a swallowed hook etc it always goes back as something will have a feed from it.
gregorach said:
Depends on what you mean by natural.
The human body evolved over a very long time to cope with certain foods. Agriculture is a relatively recent phenomenon and occured too recently for evolution to have caught up. There are very strong arguments that it is the preponderance of processed grains in the diet that lie at the root of the modern diseases of diabetes, obesity etc.
We eat a diet based on foodstuffs that are as close to unprocessed as we can. Our meat all comes from a friend who farms organically and treats her animals with respect. It is more expensive, so we eat less of it.
Tadpole's post is simplified but basically what every first year anthropology student is taught, i.e spot on given present knowledge. We could get by on way less meat than we do. The other side of the coin is that most meat contains all of the essential amino acids that we need, whilst you need to eat combinations of plants to achieve the same. There are some fairly easy combos though for instance, the First Nations would plant corn (maize) and beans together for this.
I love veggie food, especially the Asian flavours, but give up meat?
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