Vegetarians in the Wild

[British Red]

I
Hens have been bred now that lay 100's of eggs a year; and they don't seem to miss the nesting instinct. Food goes in one end and eggs come out the other Rather unnatural in such quantity, but the hens seem contented enough. I have a lot of friends who keep free range chickens, there's no shortage of eggs.

Going to disagree with some of this - hens do still naturally try to hatch eggs - its only the act of daily egg removal that keeps them laying - its a completely natural behaviour. They are constantly trying and failing to complete a clutch. Let them complete that clutch and they will quickly go broody, try to hatch the eggs (and succeed if a cockerel is present) and stop laying.

Chickens live from six to ten years - but almost all egg laying birds are killed at two years as after that they cannot keep up the egg laying speed and the economics don't work - so they are slaughtered (and almost invariably not eaten as they are not nice tender meat birds).

Its a funny old world where the things like dairy and eggs are, to my mind, the cruellest parts left of farming - rather like the growing of vegetables causes the greatest destruction of nature and wildlife.

Still, far be it from me to argue with food choices - some people eat brussel sprouts - I'd rather have a cheese omlette any day!

 

[MartiniDave]

We are the cooking ape

I guess that explains Jaimie Oliver then!

 

[hog]

So, after my first outing with the lovely people of Greater Manchester's Bushcraft group, and

This could easily dissolve into a discussion about how flawed my philosophy is, or what I'm not doing right, but I would rather it didn't. This is a discussion about cruelty. To animals. In Bushcraft.

Nothing wrong with your ethics and no need to apologise, I myself was a vegie for over 20 years and now am a Vegan, so is my Wife and 3 Children.
My slant on this is that if you have to eat meat to sustain life..or die, I will eat meat, this does not make one a meat eater the same way that the Folk who had to resort to eating their fellows in the Andes are not cannibals.
I dont feel like a failed Bushcrafter because I dont eat meat, a Gatherer not a hunter..me.

 

[hog]

Much as I sympathise with the vegetarian viewpoint, it's both downright unnatural and positively dangerous for your health.

It is almost impossible to acquire enough vitamin B12 without eating meat (or vitamin supplements to make up for your bad diet). Long term deficiencies in B12 have been found to result in a reduction in brain mass, and the brain is one organ you really don't want to be screwing with.

The survival of human beings requires the shedding of blood on the part of animals. This should be a sobering thought, and one that causes us to try and exercise the greatest care to minimise suffering as is possible.

But I don't think there is any getting away from the reality - we are built to eat meat.

A lot of research needed here Im afraid Fellow Bushcrafter.

 

[Retired Member southey]

I reckon you could do a simple experiment, eating only veg, (but you'd have to work out how much you could forage a day) sleep out in the garden for a week, chop wood, go for walks of a few miles in length, sit and read, go to work what ever but be active, and see what your energy and comfort levels are, then do it again with your accepted proteins in the diet too, again intake based on what would be a resonable level of foraged finds, again see what our comfort is like, no point chatting about numbers when you can do the research your self based on your own acceptable levels of comfort not a lab. But I do think you need to sleep out side to remove the heat of the home.

 

[pyrotech]

I think the point about egg laying chickens is a very valid one, which has had the most cruelty involved in it, your supermarket purchased Sunday Lunch, or your snared, shot , netted- rabbit, squirrel , muntjac .

I personally have no wish to "kill" to purely advance my knowledge of bushcraft, and I personally doubt TEOTWAWKI will arrive for at least a few aeons. Mace424 said "Do have to say that I really really enjoy the stalking and fieldcraft part of hunting, the art of camouflage , etc. I always aim to kill clean and with respect." So do I, whoever I still don't see the need to kill, I'd be more proud a really good photo taken under the same conditions.

I find even more confusing the allowances given to native peoples of endangered species in the name of tradition, then off they go with high powered rifles and vehicles.... !!!!!! SOD THE BUSHCRAFT.
Then we have meat that should be in every supermarket , those invasive species , grey, american signal , muntjac ...animals our government should be encouraging us to eat, and encouraging people like us to trap.. but no.

I doubt man as a species has evolved to be vegan , but things change,we discovered HYGIENE.(ohhh no more daily beer, just good pipes and chlorine) In the west we have only recently acquired the ability to digest milk sugars in adulthood. Most Asian and Eastern cultures remain lactose intolerant.

The real point is that in the modern world somebody can choose on moral grounds to be a vegan and live the lifestyle. Personally I have an almost raw processed carb free diet, Monday to Friday (only cook or warm beans or mixes) and them eat what the family does at weekends (and occasional over indulge). Why... because following an industrial injury, sitting around at home I put on nearly 3 stone and over 6 inches around the waste... and my smoking increased.... changed diet to drop the pounds ... and have stayed with it. Back to a BMI of 24 and comfortable trousers, and I really enjoy my meals... sliced white bread tastes like sugar infused cotton wool to me know.

 

[Toddy]

Andy, I haven't disagreed that we can digest meat........just not very well unless cooked.

How do you get from that to what you posted

That goes for shellfish too incidentally, have you ever tried chewing, and I do mean chewing on raw limpet ?

We are omnivorous of the choicest morsels one of the advantages of those big brains and hand eye co-ordination
The cooking of food is as intrinsic to our widespread survival on this Earth as the construction and wearing of garments.


BR, I think you'll find that modern hens will lay eggs regardless of whether they're nesting or not, their physiology is totally muddled. One of my hen keeping friends tried it, left the hen with a nest and ten eggs, and the hen still squated and produced three eggs a week elsewhere in the garden. I don't think you could rely on it, but it happens. I do agree that battery farming has to be amongst the cruelest thing that we can do to these beasts though
Short lives ? yes, but then animal husbandry has always been focused on the cull, hasn't it ?
To many the eggs are simply a by product BR, they don't carry the same emotional twist for them I reckon.

Milk ? distressed cows won't produce quality milk.......that's it really. Again modern animal husbandry ends their lives prematurely, and leads to some very odd looking beasts, a rickle of bones covered in skin with huge great milk udders.
Again, many don't consider the milk as anything but a by product. They do have problems with leather though.

I think Andy's right about the quality of care on British farms; not saying there isn't room for improvement, just that comparatively speaking British farmers are among the best

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Phaestos]

Just a quick perusal of the later stages of this thread really demonstrate how confusing this issue is. These are questions and points that go through my head every day, hence why I was reluctant for this thread to go in that direction. Every view has validity here, but it is off topic. I'm new here, and really don't want to make enemies, but can we get back onto the topic at hand? Eating, or not eating meat in the bush, and whether cruelty is at all present in Bushcraft?

However, even if the comments were off topic, thank-you for bringing alot of these issues to my attention. A healthy reassessment if principles is always helpful, and you guys have really made me start thinking once more about my choices. Thanks

 

[Toddy]

Every bushcrafter I've met who kills for food does so as quickly and simply as they can. It's almost like they take a pride in a quick, quiet, clean kill.
They are even fussy over their fishing techniques.
They will take rabbit, hare, pigeon, duck, goose, pheasant, (appropriate permissions duly received) squirrel, assorted fishes, deer when given the opportunity, shellfish, and on occasion, with appropriate care, roadkill. Even I've been known to lug back a fresh road kill into camp

Are they cruel ?

No.
That's true even of those who haven't killed their own food before; they genuinely seem to want to learn to do it properly, with as least distress as they can.
They also don't kill indiscriminately, and they do try to make as much use a possible of most animals. Small birds though, there's really only the breast meat worth taking, and squirrels the hind legs.

cheers,
Toddy......resident vegetarian

 

[Wook]

A lot of research needed here Im afraid Fellow Bushcrafter.

In what way, hog? There are no natural sources of B12 except for animal proteins. The only way to obtain it without meat is to eat synthetic supplements, which include things like Marmite as well as vitamin tablets. B12 is not found in yeast extract, it is added during the manufacturing process. Without modern technology inserting into foodstuffs the things you miss by not eating meat, veganism in particular is not a viable lifestyle choice. At least, not without encountering serious nutritional deficiencies along the way.

Many doctors recommend that vegans get themselves regularly tested for B12 deficiencies. That alone would give me doubts about it.

On the plus side you can do what you want. I would not force you to eat meat even if it were within my power to do so. In this case I disagree with your choices, but if everyone believed the same things the world would be a very dull place. So, more power to your elbow.

 

[Toddy]

Did you read the link I posted Wook...........B12 is not a problem, it is not 'only' obtained by the consumption of animal guts. It's produced by micro organisms in the soil, etc.,

"Neither plants nor animals are independently capable of constructing vitamin B[SUB]12[/SUB].[SUP] [/SUP]Only bacteria & arachnea have the enzymes required for its synthesis. "

"Industrial production of B[SUB]12[/SUB] is produced by fermentation of micro organisems like streptomycesgriseus which is a bacterium once thought to be a yeast.
The species Pseudomonas denitrificans & Propionibacterium shermanii are more commonly used today."

and yes, my daily marmite does have b12 in it

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Wook]

You're right Toddy, B12 does occur in other sources, but the only places it naturally occurs in sufficient quantities for human dietary needs are within meat. In order to obtain enough B12 without consuming meat, it is necessary to consume foods that have been fortified with B12 to a level that does not occur within nature.

Vegans in particular who do not do this almost invariably have been found to have too little b12 in their system. Those who consume eggs, dairy and fish are usually able to obtain what they need from there.

 

[British Red]

Just a quick perusal of the later stages of this thread really demonstrate how confusing this issue is. These are questions and points that go through my head every day, hence why I was reluctant for this thread to go in that direction. Every view has validity here, but it is off topic. I'm new here, and really don't want to make enemies, but can we get back onto the topic at hand? Eating, or not eating meat in the bush, and whether cruelty is at all present in Bushcraft?

However, even if the comments were off topic, thank-you for bringing alot of these issues to my attention. A healthy reassessment if principles is always helpful, and you guys have really made me start thinking once more about my choices. Thanks

I think the problem comes from the term "cruel". Cruel is a subjective term. Any hunt can result in a non instantaneous death. Indeed very few deaths are truly instantaneous - heart lung shots and spinal column certainly aren't - although they are quick. However does the potential exist for slow and panful deaths? Certainly - indeed one could argue the fish poisoning by indiginous peoples shown on Bushcraft shows is cruel - of course because fish are cold and wet, they don't evoke the same emotions in many.

However its arguable that eating nuts and berries threatens the life of smaller mammals and birds that would otherwise eat them - indeed threatens them with a lingering death from starvation.

Its certainly true of vegetable farming - it is far less wildlife friendly than grazing stock is to wildlife.

I think all we can do is attempt to use what we harvest responsibly. On a personal level, as a smallholder and lifetime country lad, I don't believe farming animals is cruel - indeed without it most of the UK would be huge monoculture deserts to animals birds and insects. The same is true in Bushcraft. Man plays the role of apex predator. If he harvests weaker and older animals, it spares them a lingering death. I see this as positively compassionate.

 

[Toddy]

No, it's not.
Simply don't wash vegetables too well Forage daily and we're fine.
Indeed the best way to obtain sufficient is in tiny quantities ingested frequently rather than in one meal.

The old folks used to say that we needed to eat a peck of dirt before we die (peck is actually quarter of a bushel or a couple of gallons); looks like they were right They also said that a small glass of seawater a day was a good idea though.

M

 

[monkey spanner]

This is quite a lively thread, I've enjoyed reading it.

Just one point that no one has mentioned yet, you (not you, but you know..you) can choose to eat ethically sourced meat Etc, but it seems to me that the vast majority of people in this country don't have that choice.
You spot a nice cut of meat in the supermarket that's been reared ethically, hmmm...then see that it costs £10, in the package next to it you can get 2 cut's for £4.
It's not a life choice, but an economic choice.

Sorry to go a bit off topic guy's, but I felt it's a point worth making.

 

[hog]

Many doctors recommend that vegans get themselves regularly tested for B12 deficiencies. That alone would give me doubts about it.

For most people who suffer from B12 deficiency it's not because they aren't obtaining it from food, but because they lack something called intrinsic factor, which the body produces. When the body stops producing it, that's when your problems begin. The only people I've ever heard of who suffer from this are meat-eaters, not vegans (although I'm not saying that vegans don't lack intrinsic factor, just that the lack of B12, and pernicious anaemia which results, is not as a result of their diet.)

 

[mousey]

You spot a nice cut of meat in the supermarket that's been reared ethically, hmmm...then see that it costs £10, in the package next to it you can get 2 cut's for £4.
It's not a life choice, but an economic choice.

Sorry to go a bit off topic guy's, but I felt it's a point worth making.

I'd definatley go along with that. I'd love to be able to afford to buy ethically raised meats all the time, even organic veg all the time, but unfortunatley I can't. I do have a good job, it doesn't pay incredibly well, I unfortunatley have quite afew expenses which does not leave a lot for the 'healthier' options. I can see why people are so unhealthy when supermarket own brands and heavily process ready meals are so much cheaper than quality organic foods.

Anyway good I'll echo the good thread comment - enjoying it alot.

 

[Joonsy]

there are situations when killing an animal is a kindness such as when one has been run-over on the road by a vehicle and left living (just) but extremely badly inured, i wonder how many people stop their vehicle after hitting an animal to check its condition, not many i would hazard a guess and that tells you something about human nature. Not all road-kill has an instant death and many are just left to die of crippling injuries, i once saw a deer hit by a car which suffered horrendous injuries but was still alive so i killed that deer and was instantly called a cruel so-and-so by the owner of the car who was more interested in the damage to the car. My guess is that most people who hit something like a rabbit or pheasant in their vehicle don't stop because they don't want to know if it is still alive because that presents them with something they would sooner not confront.

 

[Phaestos]

I'll echo that echo! Loving this thread!

Like I said before, this thread is making me think alot about my principles in regards to my vegetarianism, and I like that. Red Squirrel's comment on my use of the word 'cruel' is, I feel, particularly important. Cruelty is highly subjective. In some countries their method of responsible sourcing, or the bushcraft methods that have persisted for countless generations might be seen as highly cruel. The difference I feel that is there though is a respect for what they kill, a recognition of the animal's sacrifice. They waste nothing and that, I feel, marks how useful, and how valuable they perceive the animal to be.

I do admit that the industry in this country is much better than it has been, and much better than other countries. I think though, coming to a conclusion just now, that I can't eat meat because any respect I have for the animals sacrifice has been removed by the middle man. Thinking on it, i might feel better about the act of killing an animal as long as i could personally show my respect to it. No middle man, no broken to connection between me and the animal. As long as I can't guarantee that I can do that, however, I won't eat meat.

Does that make sense? Or do I just sound crazy?

 

[mousey]

As long as I can't guarantee that I can do that, however, I won't eat meat.

Does that make sense? Or do I just sound crazy?

That to me makes complete sense. My wife is vegetarian, she does however cook meat for me and the kids [and she does a very good job of it too - even without being able to taste it to see what the seasoning is like] She has a very strong view that if you couldn't kill an animal for food then you shouldn't be eating meat - fair enough in my view.