Vegetarians in the Wild

[Phaestos]

So, after my first outing with the lovely people of Greater Manchester's Bushcraft group, and after sharing their company, and enduring the light hearted ribbing that took place, a few things rose to my mind. I would like to share them, if it isn't a problem.

I have been a vegetarian for the past year. To clarify my stance, I don't eat anything that has been extracted from an animal, i.e. Meat, gelatine etc. I drink milk, eat eggs and divulge in cheese rather more than my heart tells me I really should, so long as I have some kind of guarantee that the welfare of the animal providing the goods is relatively good, and conducted without cruelty. Furthermore, I don't buy leather or other animal skin goods. I will buy, and use, second-hand leather goods, but not when this will result in an increased demand for leather on the market, hence the use of something someone else doesn't want anyway.

This could easily dissolve into a discussion about how flawed my philosophy is, or what I'm not doing right, but I would rather it didn't. This is a discussion about cruelty. To animals. In Bushcraft.

Sounds a bit like an accusation doesn't it? Well it isn't. This is the dilemma I faced when I decided to become involved in Bushcraft. Let me explain.

I originally became a vegetarian due to a film I saw regarding cruelty to animals in the meat and animal based industries of the world. This film is Earthlings. I wouldn't recommend you watch it, but that is because I believe vegetarianism is a choice that should be made first, then backed up with evidence later. Regardless, I chose to remove myself from the demand that dictated the supply of animals raised, and slaughtered in cruel, disrespectful conditions. I tried to go all out vegan, but settled with dairy and eggs that I could guarantee had come from respectable conditions, with the animal's welfare in mind.

Bushcraft presented a dilemma for me when I realised that a major driving force of my education in it revolved around me wanting to know how to survive if the situation called for it. I want it to be enjoyable, and bring my closer to nature, but also to provide me with competent knowledge and skills that I could trust when the proverbial poop hit the fan. A major facet of this was food.

I can eat fine as a veggie when I have food available, i.e. bought in a shop prior to camping, but I doubt my body's ability to absorb all it can from the flora at my disposal in any given situation. Protein, fats, complex carbs; as an avid Traceur/Freerunner it is immediately apparent to me after only moderate exercise how much my body needs these things to keep going. We may be omnivores, but omni means multiple, not just one. In the same way, I'm a vegetarian, I'm not stupid. Meat, when all my soy alternatives and Quorn substitutes have gone, is what I'll need to live.

This doesn't mean I have a burning desire to go out and ravage small animals for fear I will starve without them, but it does concern me that I neither know how to kill an animal, nor have any idea how I could deal with it, if at all. These are difficult questions for me, and it brings us neatly onto cruelty in Bushcraft.

In short, there isn't any. At least as far as I can tell. Bushcraft teaches, and promotes, a respect for nature, and that includes the animals within. Instructions in Ray Mears' Bushcraft handbook describe how to kill a rabbit. It seems humane. It seems respectful. But what matters most is the inclusion of a tiny sentence laying out how un-cruel it is for the rabbit. Quick and, hopefully, painless. This respect pervades Bushcraft, and is only strengthened by a mutual respect for those cultures we admire that show an equal respect to the animals they kill. This does not condone senseless killing, but accepts a natural order in life.

My dilemma thickens. I won't eat meat due to cruelty inherent in the meat industry. Can I then eat meat killed without cruelty in the bush? No. For health reasons (the human body needs to be reintroduced the the slow digestion of acidic meat ( Cf. Predators have shorter intestinal tracts and so pass the meat through themselves relatively fast, the acid causing little problems for them. The human digestive system is that of a herbivore, but with the capacity for meat processing. If you remove the meat, the tract becomes primarily a herbivore's once more, and has to 'learn' to process the meat once more)) and for that most awkward of things: principle. I cannot justify killing an animal without cruelty, or with very little, when I am aware that there are many other animals that will die in a much worse, and more degrading, manner.

And yet, I feel strongly that I should know how to snare animals, and skin them, and cook them properly, in order to feel prepared for whatever I face. I don't know as yet how I will achieve this, nor whether I will achieve it at all. I harbour no ill will for those that eat meat, and yet wonder how I might take a Bushcraft course that involves capturing animals, and simply choose to miss out what I feel, as a human, is a life experience. To take a life. No matter how minor. To take a life, and know it was not in vain, as MadDave said. These are things that I cannot help but feel matter.

Like I said, I have no anger or negative emotions to those that eat meat, and can trap and kill animals in a humane manner. In fact, there might be an element of envy in me that respects their resolve to take a life, and treat it as a mighty gift the animal provided for them.

My Bushcraft life continues, and it is with an unsettling feeling of regret that I am missing out on this vital part of being a predator, as well as a partner to nature. It is a dilemma that fills my mind. I would like your thoughts, views, on vegetarianism in Bushcraft, as well as cruelty, if you perceive there to be any.

Cheers guys, and I hope I didn't bore you.

Phaestos

P.S. Apologies if the grammar is terrible. I'm writing this in a tablet, and it can be rather awkward!

 

[Prodigal Son]

A good read and respectfully written.

I hope this thread doesn't degenerate.

Andy

 

[mace242]

Thanks for a really thoughtful post. I shoot, fish and do the occasional bit of ferreting. I thought long and hard about my feelings before I started doing these things and came to what I think is a similar conclusion. I had to put the respect and care of the animal into all I do when I hunt them. I hunt with quiet respect and don't take the taking of a life lightly. I also bought my feelings for animals I hunt into those I buy and stick to the highest welfare animals I can.

I will add that in my youth I was vegetarian for some 10 years and understand your thoughts. I'll conclude with this advice: you may not hunt and eat meat but that doesn't stop you becoming a fungi expert (something I am certainly not) or anything similar so there is no reason to feel you miss out, and there is no reason that hunting and killing animals in a good way with respect and care isn't something you should do. From your tone I don't know if this is needed; Do what you feel is right in your heart - do it with respect to others and the world around you.

Apologies if my grammar is terrible - I type like a gorilla in boxing gloves.

 

[rik_uk3]

Dead is dead, don't really see a nice way of achieving the end result. There have been and are, instances of cruelty in killing animals but really I suspect killing a bunny with a snare is not overly nice.

 

[Dave]

I know a number of people who hunted and killed animals for most of their lives, who now have similiar views to your own.
Taking the life of an animal produces a dichotomy. Some people admit to being torn. Others dont. But I would like to think all feel it.
I would prefer to 'hunt' with people who are at the end of the spectrum which involves admitting it. And maybe struggled with it a bit. And have given it some thought.

There are plenty of people out there who would label you a PETA shill, and insult you for your viewpoint. But I have seen some truly awful footage of humans skinning animals alive etc.

It's also true that some perfectly normal people get a real physical rush, not dis-similiar to pleasure, out of stalking, hunting and killing an animal. I suspect that must be something deeply ingrained within us? However abhorrent that may appear to someone who has never experienced it; the persepective of most of the modern world.

It goes without saying for me, If i was going to kill something it must be done 'cleanly' and there must be a reason for it. I.E. Food.

As a species were still closer to the apes than the angels!

 

[spandit]

I suppose we're fortunate to have the choice. I admire the OP for his stance and although I still eat meat, we do try to buy it from a local butcher where one would hope the animal has been better treated than at a supermarket. Perhaps this is wishful thinking

 

[Retired Member southey]

I suppose we're fortunate to have the choice. I admire the OP for his stance and although I still eat meat, we do try to buy it from a local butcher where one would hope the animal has been better treated than at a supermarket. Perhaps this is wishful thinking

I reckon it could be chap,


I reckon every one has the choice to eat what ever they want and should neither be exalted or berated for the choice they make.

 

[MartiniDave]

There' a lot of bushcrafty things you can do that don't involve killing anything, like carving, campcraft, basket weaving etc etc.
If you chose not to eat meat while you're doing it fine, just enjoy what you do. I often practice bushcraft, while sitting in my spare room or even lounge.
Just enjoy what you do.

Truly best wishes in your pursuit of this pastime.

Dave

 

[sasquatch]

To the OP, I can sort of relate to your dilemma. I've been vegetarian in the past and it's not easy. I still maintain a fairly veggie diet but do eat meat when I feel I need it. That usually happens when I'm camping for some reason. Growing up in Canada I fished and hunted and still know people that fill their deep freezers with meat to see them through the year. I have nothing against hunting but it isn't for me anymore. Basically because I don't need to. My 7 year old son isn't veggie so I have every intention to shoot a rabbit with him and have him help me prep it so he fully understands the whole process from death to nom nom nom. Makes sense.

Basically as Southey says, what you eat or don't eat is your choice. We all have our reasons and it doesn't bother me when people rip me for being mainly veggie. I've heard it my whole life so it means nothing to me. Perhaps if you're struggling with killing but want to be more involved you could just prep a rabbit someone else has already despatched. If it doesn't make you feel wrong you could try some or just prep and cook it for someone else.

 

[Tengu]

I for one feel you are being overtly harsh on the meat industry, in this country ours is very well regulated.

You could of course, rear your own meat, as I have known several people do; One ran what he delightfuly called a smallholding of dwarf rabbits and bantams on an urban flat balcony.

(I rather suspect Defra would not have approved of town dwelling livestock, but hey, you can keep pets that way...)

 

[spandit]

the whole process from death to nom nom nom

This made me chuckle.

I watched someone skin a rabbit at a recent fair and although it did make me a bit queasy, I'd still like to try it for myself, under instruction. It was one he'd shot himself and he dealt with it in a sensitive albeit matter-of-fact manner.

 

[Wook]

Much as I sympathise with the vegetarian viewpoint, it's both downright unnatural and positively dangerous for your health.

It is almost impossible to acquire enough vitamin B12 without eating meat (or vitamin supplements to make up for your bad diet). Long term deficiencies in B12 have been found to result in a reduction in brain mass, and the brain is one organ you really don't want to be screwing with.

The survival of human beings requires the shedding of blood on the part of animals. This should be a sobering thought, and one that causes us to try and exercise the greatest care to minimise suffering as is possible.

But I don't think there is any getting away from the reality - we are built to eat meat.

 

[spandit]

It took 10 replies, who had bets on that?

 

[Retired Member southey]

Just eat Marmite then wook.

 

[mousey]

Originally Posted by sasquatch
the whole process from death to nom nom nom"



I feel that as a society we have been greatly removed from food and it's origins. To most 'meat' is something which comes in a plastic wrapper from the shops. I have always tried to tell my children where 'meat' comes from - cow, sheep, pig etc, to go to a farm and explain this cow produces these types of cut of meat. I'm really not very knowlegable about it but I try.

One of the things my children love to do is go to the fish mongers to look at the different types of fish, and to go to the aquarium to see the different types of fish.

I suspect I'd not relish the idea of killing something [the biggest thing I've willfully killed was a bird - after my cat had it and it clearly wasn't going to live] but I also suspect IF I had to I'd kill an animal for food, I would try to be as quick/ painless as possible, I'd have absoultely no idea of how to process it afterwards.

 

[Wook]

I think you'd have to eat a lot, Southey. Now there's a dilemma for those who fall on the former part of the "love it or hate it" equation

When I researched abattoir practices, I seriously considered going veggie myself. Actually this is one of the main reasons I made one of my family's long term goals to emigrate to either Canada or the US. Hunting is easier to get into there, and if I kill an animal myself I can be reasonably sure it died in as humane a way as possible. I'm not a big meat eater. I reckon 1 deer and a few pheasant would do my whole family a year if we bought a chest freezer.

I don't have any love for killing. I always wince when I see fisherman smashing in fishes heads. They seem like such beautiful creatures, and it seems a pity for them to no longer be swimming around in the water. But, on the plus side, a wild river or sea fish will have had a darn sight better life than some poor farmed Salmon or such.

So my long term plan is to try and source as much of my own meat personally, but in the meantime I have a house full of young children who require meat in order to develop properly. And I have a set of canine teeth. They're there for a reason. So for now we eat store-bought until such time as a more humane alternative becomes available.

I should add one qualification though - I'm with Mr. Mears on snaring. Outside of a survival situation, non-kill snares should not be used unless they are checked very frequently..

 

[woodpoet]

I have been a Vegan for 22 years and without B12 have never had any health problems. I am now 63 years old and feel great. I am a Vegan by choice and do not push my views on anyone so if you eat meat that is up to you.

 

[Phaestos]

It took 10 replies, who had bets on that?

I should have put some money down

S'nice to know there are alot of thoughtful people out there. Just to clarify, I don't feel like I'm missing out on the whole of bushcraft, just this small part. In fact, it might not even be classed as bushcraft, but more a general skill of a predatory animal. The peculiar thing is the level of death it takes to illicit an emotion. I'll kill a fly, but a rabbit is out of the question? There are so many contradictions inherent in being a vegetarian, but I sort of like that constant reassessment of my values and principles. Keeps me on my toes.

As to the meat industry comment, and my being too harsh on it; all due respect to the british meat industry, and it could be a damn sight worse. That's a far as I'll go with that comment, as I want to keep this on topic.

While I won't reply with opposing arguments to Wook's comments, I will admit that he raises a point that I mentioned in the OP. There are things that meat provide, without fail. High quality fats, proteins, carbs, and vitamins and minerals that, while I can obtain them easily in the market, are not available in the wild. Indeed, in the wild, Wook's comments become even more important. My need for self sufficiency is tempered by my inability to obtain the food I need.

I think that in a life or death situation, I would kill to live. My vegetarianism is an issue of morals, and the need to survive easily overrides morals. But while I have the capacity to, and without the stress of having to making essential decisions, I like to analyse this facet of myself. And I can't think of a better place to do it that with you fine people!

 

[Phaestos]

Could you explain that snare comment Wook? Why not use non-kill snares?

 

[Toddy]

I've been vegetarian most of my life.
No great opprobium, I just don't like meat, never did, never wanted to eat it.
I really take my hat off to the conscience veggies though, because they're fighting their hunger for a moral stance, while I just find the whole concept repugnant.
I don't eat fish, and really wonder who first thought that shiny, cold, scaly, boney thing would be edible, loathed it as a child when my Mother or Grandmother served bird of some kind, and have never missed eating meat as an adult.

I'll prep meat, cook it, serve it, but it's not food, not for me.

To live healthily vegan/vegetarian in this country, self supporting, family rearing, beyond a few weeks/summer months foraging, you really need to farm or at least have excellent storage provision for nuts, grains, fruits and roots.
Otherwise Winter would become a very, very lean time, indeed.

I've never found it a problem at a Meet up or camp. Just deal with things courteously, just as we do for someone with an allergy to peanuts or alliums.

I have few problems with hunting, well, hunting to fill the pot or for defence, that is. To cull or for mercy, again, no issues.
The only caveat is that it's done quickly and without undue stress. Alive one moment, dinner the next and I have no problems. Some of the butchery that we're shown is truly a horrenous indictment on humanity.....and I know a couple of butchers and slaughtermen, and they are as horrified as the rest of us. Of all people they know that there are ways and methods that work humanely.
One commented not so long ago that those who perpetrate such horrors on animals should be in prison, or best culled themselves, because if they can do that to an animal they could do it to a child
Hunting just for sport, shooting tigers, gorillas, etc., is kind of pathetically ego stroking, iimmc. Take a close up photo; it'll last longer

Going to offend hundreds on here with this bit all those pheasants, brainless beautiful daft wee birds, specifically reared to be scared up into the air to be blasted with shotgun pellets..............why ? really, it's just glaikit.
Boys (and girls) and big toys
There are entire industries built up on this totally weird custom. From gunsmiths to gamekeepers. Totally incomprehensible to any intelligent mind I reckon.
Better than battery farming mind, but free range ? hunt with a decent airgun, fine and quiet, no stress; the birds are daft enough that you can walk right by them and drop a jacket over them and they'll just coorie down until they can be picked up and their necks snapped, or is that just not *sporting* enough..............and yes, that is sarcasm

Not so sure about the sudden dominance of soya everything for veggies; variety and seasonality is far healthier and more normal I think. My vegetarianism predates the flood of soya foods. Some is very good, but every meal, every day ? That's surely not wise.

There's an aspect that's not mentioned though; the industrialisation of farming. While it's crucial to our food production, there are huge issues with weedkillers, pest killers, habitat destruction, water pollution, air quality, etc., and there's no point being holier than thou if those aren't addressed too.

A hundred years ago vegetarians were considered lunatics, and animal advocates were still focused on horses. The world moves along, and us with it
Maybe we're just more than incredibly lucky to live where we do, and not only have enough food, but the choice of food too.
I find the advances in food production kind of fascinating; I think that more and more of us appreciate the home grown, organic or not, foraged and gathered foods though.
Nature hates a monoculture, and everything attacks it; variety is more than just the spice of life

cheers,
Toddy