Today I ate.......

[Seagull]

Evening, Toddy.

So what do you do for winter prep? have to load up with bought-in stuff, or do you put-by during harvest time? do you supplement?

It just never occurred to me , how vegetarians manage the hard times.

Respec.

Ceeg

 

[Toddy]

There's always *something* edible out there......toasted and ground inner bark if you're desperate Generally I gather and store; Gavin reckons he can tell how hard the winter is going to be by how much squirrelling I do ......I'm not panicing yet folks, looks mild so far


Today I ate....
Feverfew (headache )
gooseberries
rasps, blackcurrants & strawberries
Fat Hen
Hawthorn berries
Fresh dandelions
windfall apple (very, very sour )
rowans

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Moonraker]

strange, i used to eat them off the tree but when i mentioned it on this forum i was told that it wasnt a very good idea, i cant remember who by, or it what thread it was though, as it was some time ago.. i just presumed i had never eaten enought for anything nasty to happen and stopped eating them.. anyone know what the deal is either way?

tomtom & falling rain, I posted the details regarding potential toxicity of elder and raw elderberries in this thread (it was mentioned before too):

anyone made containers with elder?

specifically this post including official governmental scientific advice:

Elder Is Poisonous!! But....

The salient quote:

POISONING

Human poisoning is most likely to occur from eating raw berries ; even a few berries could lead to nausea, vomiting, stomach pains, diarrhoea, weakness and coma. In 1983, fruit juice, prepared by crushing elder berries, with their leaves, caused symptoms of poisoning within 15 minutes in a party of people in a remote area of California; the eight most severely affected had to be flown to hospital by helicopter but all recovered quickly.

source: MAFF book 'Poisonous Plants & Fungi' ISDN: 0-11-242718-9, HSMO, 1998, page 33

Other people have also noted that they eaten them raw with no ill effects. Unfortunately this does not mean that others will not suffer in the ways detailed. So much depends on individual tolerances, dosage, variability (season, climate, locality etc) that, as with many 'wild' foods, the first advice must be to seek reliable advice and avoid the potential dangers, unless you are willing to deal with the possible effects.

I myself have eaten them off the tree when I was younger and am here to tell the tale. But now I have had time to research more thoroughly and learnt from experience, I personally would avoid feeding them raw to my kids, for instance. And given that there is a simple way to render them harmless (by cooking) I would prefer to use them that way. Just as I would with other potentially toxic wild foods, such as mushrooms for instance.

I would say that avoiding potentially debilitating illness (or worse) when out away from immediate aid should form one of the central tenants of bushcraft, especially for those just beginning the adventure and who may read these forums... and why plant lore and knowledge once gained, are so rewarding.

 

[Toddy]

POISONING

QUOTE[Human poisoning is most likely to occur from eating raw berries ; even a few berries could lead to nausea, vomiting, stomach pains, diarrhoea, weakness and coma. In 1983, fruit juice, prepared by crushing elder berries, with their leaves, caused symptoms of poisoning within 15 minutes in a party of people in a remote area of California; the eight most severely affected had to be flown to hospital by helicopter but all recovered quickly.

source: MAFF book 'Poisonous Plants & Fungi' ISDN: 0-11-242718-9, HSMO, 1998, page 33]QUOTE


I do take your point Simon, but that quote specifically mentions crushing elderberries *with their leaves*, and we *know* that the leaves are *not* to be eaten at all. I would expect anyone eating the leaves with the berries to become very ill. I don't even leave the berry stalks on when I prepare the juice for syrups.
Cheers,
Toddy

 

[JonnyP]

Elder is not mentioned as poisonous in food for free and in A guide to wild plants by Michael Jordan, he says......... A word of caution : though the flowers and fruits can be used with safety, all other parts of the plant synthesise active principals which can give rise to anything from dizzyness to convulsions.......

 

[Toddy]

I think of elder like yew or oxalis, it's good food, if used properly. Many of our cultivated foods are the same; potatoes are fine, if not green, but don't eat the fruits that grow among the leaves. Rhubarb stalks are sweet and tasty, but don't eat the leaves; kind of thing.
Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Moonraker]

I do take your point Simon, but that quote specifically mentions crushing elderberries *with their leaves*, and we *know* that the leaves are *not* to be eaten at all. I would expect anyone eating the leaves with the berries to become very ill. I don't even leave the berry stalks on when I prepare the juice for syrups.
Cheers,
Toddy

Toddy, I think you have misread the quote and not seen the linked text taken directly from the MAFF book? The reference to the juice and leaves is just an example. It is the reason I highlighted the important bit at the start.

The part referring to the specific toxicity of elder in the linked text is quite clear:

POISONOUS SUBSTANCES

Sambucus species contain a substance that causes vomiting and diarrhoea, and also cyanide-producing glycosides; all parts are poisonous.

Similar advice is given by the governments 'Food Standards Agency' (FSA) in their (useful) advisory article:

SFA - Hedgerow harvest

Where they clearly state:

Just because one part of a plant is edible, however, doesn't mean that all parts are. Some plants also need cooking to destroy toxins. For example, cooking elderberries destroys toxins present in the raw berries but leaves, barks or roots of elder should never be eaten.

Further advice is offered by the Canadian Poisonous Plants Information System:

Notes on poisoning: Sambucus nigra

They also specifically advice:

Children should not be allowed to ingest the berries.

As I mentioned, variability of toxicity from plant to plant is another reason why the results of eating the fruit is so unpredictable. From one study on the subject:

The presence or absence of cyanogenic glycosides was determined for individuals from nine populations of Sambucus canadensis L. (elderberry) of east-central Illinois. In most of the populations tested, all or most of the individuals did not produce these compounds, in one, all were cyanogenic, whereas in another population this trait was highly variable. Addition of the enzyme emulsin to negative tests did not result in any further release of cyanide. The glycoside responsible is (S)-sambunigrin.

source: 'Sambunigrin and cyanogenic variability in populations of Sambucus canadensis L. (Caprifoliaceae).'Buhrmester RA, Ebinger1a JE, Seigler DS. Biochem Syst Ecol. 2000 Aug 1;28(7): p. 689-695.

Sambunigrin is the toxic cyanogenic glycoside compound found in elderberries (and other parts of the plant along with other compounds)

I think of elder like yew or oxalis, it's good food, if used properly. Many of our cultivated foods are the same; potatoes are fine, if not green, but don't eat the fruits that grow among the leaves. Rhubarb stalks are sweet and tasty, but don't eat the leaves; kind of thing.
Cheers,
Toddy

I totally agree with you. However, you have to be doubly sure with wild foods as the knowledge and experience is often lost or misunderstood. And, as with the case in point, it is clear there is in fact a potential danger which should be considered and understood by those eating them and especially those advocating the eating of such foods.

The devil is often in the detail. Like with eating rhubarb as you mention (my bold inserts):

"Rhubarb stalks are sweet and tasty [when cooked], but don't eat the leaves [or lower part of the stalks]; kind of thing."

For info:

There are plenty of other poisonous plants; some of which you might not imagine could harm you. Rhubarb, for example, contains oxalate crystals, and can cause poisoning when large quantities of raw or cooked leaves are eaten (this happened quite often in World War I, when rhubarb leaves were recommended as a food source).

Rhubarb also contains chemicals called glycosides (the same groups of compounds that make foxgloves and lily-of-the-valley dangerous). These are found low in the stalks, so the message is only to ever use the middle of the stalks of rhubarb.

source: BBC Health - Poisonous plants- Dr Trisha Macnair

 

[Toddy]

A poke of sugar and a stalk of rhubarb have been favoured children's food in Scotland for generations. That's uncooked rhubarb......and I still eat it.
Elderberries are regularly eaten, straight from the tree......and I know of no one who has been ill from them.
Yew berries are a sought after winter treat, and we all know *not* to eat the seed.
....it goes on.

Thank you for the information Simon, and for taking the time and trouble to find it. However, I have a feeling that like the rats fed nothing but hamburgers and the result showed that they died of hamburgers, therefore they're toxic, arguement I reckon there's more to the story.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, and I don't believe that traditonal knowledge ought to be so academically disposed of.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[JonnyP]

A poke of sugar and a stalk of rhubarb have been favoured children's food in Scotland for generations. That's uncooked rhubarb......and I still eat it.
Elderberries are regularly eaten, straight from the tree......and I know of no one who has been ill from them.
Yew berries are a sought after winter treat, and we all know *not* to eat the seed.
....it goes on.

Thank you for the information Simon, and for taking the time and trouble to find it. However, I have a feeling that like the rats fed nothing but hamburgers and the result showed that they died of hamburgers, therefore they're toxic, arguement I reckon there's more to the story.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, and I don't believe that traditonal knowledge ought to be so academically disposed of.

Cheers,
Toddy

Fully agree, and I am happy for my boy to eat the raw berrys (in small doses).
MAFF and FSA are probably covering themselves in case someone makes a claim against them. I bet it says yew berries are poisonous too.........

 

[Moonraker]

A poke of sugar and a stalk of rhubarb have been favoured children's food in Scotland for generations. That's uncooked rhubarb......and I still eat it.
Elderberries are regularly eaten, straight from the tree......and I know of no one who has been ill from them.
Yew berries are a sought after winter treat, and we all know *not* to eat the seed.
....it goes on.

Thank you for the information Simon, and for taking the time and trouble to find it. However, I have a feeling that like the rats fed nothing but hamburgers and the result showed that they died of hamburgers, therefore they're toxic, arguement I reckon there's more to the story.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, and I don't believe that traditional knowledge ought to be so academically disposed of.

Cheers,
Toddy

Toddy, these posts were not directed particularly at you, but more for those members, including beginners, who do not have the 'traditional knowledge' that you speak. Where I posted details in response to some of the things you posted was so that others can make an informed decision for themselves. In the end we all make our minds up and gauge the risks we are prepared to take.

Yew berries are a sought after winter treat, and we all know *not* to eat the seed.

I think you over-estimate the level of such knowledge. For instance in the USA in 2003 alone, 77,169 plant exposures were reported to the American Association of Poison Control Centers Toxic Exposure Surveillance System.

Most people I would suggest, would say yew is poisonous and would be aghast if you popped a yew berry in your mouth. That we can learn such skills 'and' understand why we do/do not certain things (i.e. we spit out the seed because chewing it releases the toxins within) is part of the learning experience, of which this forum provides a great resource for those who are not fortunate to have friends or family to pass them along.

It's got little to do with 'traditional knowledge' being "so academically disposed of" as you put it, but about official bodies providing sensible advice being presented so that your average person who wants to enjoy wild food has that information and advice available to them. I don't see why traditional lore and scientific study can not be mutually beneficial to one another.

Given the nature of bushcraft, we have to be even more aware of any potential risks in what we do and eat. Because we are likely to gather food to sustain ourselves then you are more likely to eat larger amounts and over a longer period. Therefore what was fine by the handful picked off a bush during a walk may not be so safe. Also, often we will be isolated and illness can become a real issue.

No one will drop dead from eating a handful of elderberries. Poisoning is rarely fatal. But even low level effects can be unpleasant and are avoidable. We should show wild plants (even common ones around us) the same healthy respect as we show wild fungi and in that way truly appreciate nature's larder; safely.

 

[Toddy]

But if we adhered to that then we wouldn't eat uncooked elderberries, we wouldn't eat yew berry flesh, we'd be panicing every time a child eats an apple to insist that they *don't* eat the cyanide rich seeds.......we *do* take the point, but there are two sides to the knowledge.
It is edible, but......
We need that balance, we need the knowledge that allows us to experience and learn.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toddy]

So far, today, I've eaten....
Rose petals,
dew from the Lady's mantle,
raspberries,
fresh picked and milky barley

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Moonraker]

We need that balance, we need the knowledge that allows us to experience and learn.

Exactly.

So,armed with that knowledge (preferably gained from someone experienced and/or reinforced with an understanding of why/how such 'rules' work; because there is also much myth and confusion out there too) we can go out and learn, gain experience and pass that onto others.

To extend that then to eating elderberries, to reduce the possibility of any potential harm if someone chooses to eat elderberries, remember to follow a few simple rules gleaned from the various sources:

1. Ensure you have correctly identified the plant, especially avoid confusion with Dwarf Elder or Danewort (Sambucus ebulus) who's berries are both inedible raw (highly astringent) and also potentially toxic.

2. Avoid all parts of the elder plant (leaves, bark, roots & unripe berries) except the flesh of the ripe elderberries.

3. Avoid picking them from roadsides or other environments likely to contain pollutants and hedgerows adjacent to crops which may have been recently sprayed with chemicals. If possible wash the berries before eating.

4. Heating by cooking them destroys the toxins present in the raw, ripe berries removing any potential danger (suitable for jellies, juices, compotes etc.)

5. If you do eat the berries raw, ensure they are fully ripe and avoid chewing or crushing the seeds within the berries which contain the toxin (sambunigrin). Macerating the seeds releases the toxin which would otherwise pass harmlessly through the gut, the same reason not to chew yew berries.

6. Eat them raw only in moderate amounts (also the fresh juice acts as a laxative)

7. Consider that children and those with lowered immune systems (the pregnant and elderly for instance) will have a lower tolerance to any toxins ingested. Teach your kids so they can teach theirs.

8. Finally, if you're unsure, don't eat it.

The information provided by the FSA (Food Standards Agency) provides clear and sensible general guidelines to consider when foraging:

FSA - Hedgerow harvest

Happy (& safe) foraging

 

[Cyclingrelf]

I did the Woodlore Journeyman last year and was told that Elderberries can make you vomit if you haven't eaten them as a child...(if you eat them as children, you develop a tolerance for them).

Well, I had eaten them as a child, but not often because I lived abroad mostly. So I figured I'd go for it...and brought them straight back up again even though they had been cooked. Mind you, my stomach was in a particularly fragile state due to lack of food...

Other than vomiting, there don't seem to be any other problems from them. But if you've just spent half a day foraging for food and then puke it all away, that's a waste of a lot of energy...

I shall be eating them again later this year anyway, 'cos they taste nice and I want to see if I'm ok when I'm not half starving.

 

[MattW]

Vegetable casserole,
Onions, garlic, chillies, broad beans, courgettes, tomatoes, beetroot, bay, sage, oregano, served with fir apple new potatoes - not wildfood, but all from the garden (and paprika, not from the garden - I just can't live without Spanish picante paprika!).

Our first entirely 'home grown' meal of the year - always a cause for celebration.
I just wish we had space for livestock (or hunting near us) then it could inlcude home gathered meat!

best
Matt

 

[Toddy]

Now that sounds good Home grown always *tastes* better.
I know what you mean about the peppers but I grew them in my unheated greenhouse last year, and a friend grows them every year, chillies too, on a sunny windowsill. He just freezes them for use through-out the year.
You might try setting the seeds of the ones you buy in the greengrocer, they're suyrprisingly fertile. By the sounds of it though you've got the growing well in hand

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[swyn]

Finally put my money where my mouth is. Was in the woods today with my son cutting the riding trail for pony club camp. We came across a big area of wild rasps. All I can say is YUM YUM!

 

[Toddy]

Oats, barley, rye and wood millet
Wild strawberries, rasps and blackcurrants
Fennel
Wild Oregano
Nigella seeds
Poppy seeds (fresh and bitter )
Fat Hen
Plantain seeds

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Seagull]

Cor, Toddy!

All this stuff that you find!

I should get myself a new set of specs and start actually looking at stuff!


atb
Ceeg

 

[kaoss]

Raspberries
Blackberries
Whinberrys
Wood sorrel
Thistle nuts