The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

[mrcharly]

Janne, there are plenty of valid reasons for needing a sharp tip for a knife.

I have mixed feelings about this alteration to the wording. My personal feeling is that the 'flipper' knives are not necessary. One-handed opening, yes, but do any of us need a knife that opens in 0.25s vs a knife that opens in 2s?

How do you word legislation to block super-fast opening knifes? It isn't really the mechanism that is the problem, it is the speed.

 

[Janne]

And as somebody pointed out, there are valid uses for an effortless one handed opening too.
I have been using knifes now for what, 52, 53 years now? Kitchen, nature, fishing, hunting.
I can live without the tip on a knife.

I think UK has the most severe knife legislation in Europe? Yet is one of the top countries on knife crime.
The next 20 years will be interesting.

I wish you all a safe day!

 

[FoxyRick]

I think UK has the most severe knife legislation in Europe? Yet is one of the top countries on knife crime.

That's probably something to do with any offence with a sharp or pointy implement being included in the 'knife' statistics. Pencils, screwdrivers, chisels, axes... it's all 'knife' crime.

 

[daveO]

Dave, what do you think this is saying:

'The current definition of flick knives in the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 is outdated and refers to the mechanism that activates the blade being in the handle. We will delete the reference to the switch blade mechanism being in the handle, as manufacturers now place the mechanism in a part of the knife that can be argued is part of the blade. This means the prohibition on the sale, manufacture and importing of flick knives cannot be circumvented through changes in their design.'


To me, and many others, it is saying it "can be argued" the mechanism is part of the blade.

Do you really mean to say that you cannot conceive the proposals arguing that a thumbstud, thumbhole or flipper-tab is part of the mechanism of the blade.....?

It is my utter and sincere hope that they are referring to flippers - a tab on the blade whereby the blade is capable of flying open. Perhaps you don't have any of these particular type, but they are one-hand-opening, obviously.

For the proposals to include Spydie hole knives, and similar, and thumbstud types, would send shivers throughout the vast law-abiding knife community - but nevertheless, despite no clarity as yet, causes great concern

The existing definition says "automatically opens". Flippers require manual force to open not automatic assisted force. It is also very dubious to say a hinge is a "mechanism". If you ignore the automatic part then a stanley knife is already considered to be a flick knife. So yes I can say for positive that a thumbstub or flipper tab isn't part of an automatic mechanism if there isn't an automatic mechanism built into the blade of the knife.

 

[Laurentius]

And as somebody pointed out, there are valid uses for an effortless one handed opening too.
I have been using knifes now for what, 52, 53 years now? Kitchen, nature, fishing, hunting.
I can live without the tip on a knife.

I think UK has the most severe knife legislation in Europe? Yet is one of the top countries on knife crime.
The next 20 years will be interesting.

I wish you all a safe day!

I have just managed by dint of pushing the thumbnail nick rather than pulling, then apply pressure to the flat of the blade, to open the blade of my leatherman squirt whilst holding a cup of tea in the other hand. I guess that makes me well dangerous.

 

[Janne]

I have just managed by dint of pushing the thumbnail nick rather than pulling, then apply pressure to the flat of the blade, to open the blade of my leatherman squirt whilst holding a cup of tea in the other hand. I guess that makes me well dangerous.

Yes, you are very dangerous!
You should be required to seek a permit for yourself.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I am trying to word this carefully. We do not want to provide anyone from government research who might read this thread with ammunition to use against us.

Speed.
The problem is only in the mind of the law makers. If someone wants to do harm with a knife, it takes less than 3 seconds to open even a two handed slip joint. That is well within the pre-contact time of many confrontations. The idea that some knives are more dangerous because they fold and can be opened more quickly than others, more dangerous than a fixed blade that is open all the time (and so need to be specifically banned), is pure fantasy. A spring assisted knife is only arguably more dangerous than a screwdriver because it has an edge, not because it has a spring (I say arguably because many screw drivers are much longer than most folding knives, hence could easily give a deeper wound than a knife).

The problem is that everyone thinks that fast opening knives are more dangerous. If that line of argument is followed, there is no lower limit to how slow a knife would have to open to make it "safe".

Also, "need" is an awfully poor yard stick. No one "needs" to drink alcohol. I hardly ever do, so it would be no bother for me if all pubs and shops had to cease selling it, but I know that it would be ineffectual for stopping loutish behaviour and that people consuming alcohol responsibly are not a problem of sufficient magnitude for an all out ban to be fair or just.

 

[daveO]

I like to think law makers have a fair bit more sense than we give them credit for sometimes. The flick knife definition has worked well since 1959 without any carpet fitters going down for owning a stanley knife. Similarly take a look at the knuckle duster definition:

a) a knuckleduster, that is, a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster

I know a lot of people who wear a band of metal on one finger that could cause injury but no one gets arrested for wearing a wedding ring. Just saying...

 

[mikehill]

How are you fighting now, by doing a survey?

Doing the survey, writing to my local MP and requesting a meet with her. Why all the questions ??

 

[mrcharly]

I think there are two possible intentions behind this change; one is a politician (or more than one) wanting to make a 'name' for themselves by driving through legislation that will be populist and popular while seemingly causing little harm to any industries. The other intention may well be a (probably misinformed) intention to reduce knife crime.

As well expressed by someone earlier, if there had been even one significant case go through the courts involving a OHO, the case law would have been established, as happened with locking knives.

It is unlikely that we'd prevent any changes from being made. It is possible that a decent lobby might influence the wording of the changes.

 

[Janne]

Doing the survey, writing to my local MP and requesting a meet with her. Why all the questions ??

I just wanted to know in which ways people try to influence the law makers.

Gen. discussion: I still think that the most sensible would be to introduce a restriction for a blunt tipped knife, both folders and fixed blades.
Most crimes with blades are stab wounds. A minority are slash wounds.

 

[hughtrimble]

I just wanted to know in which ways people try to influence the law makers.

Gen. discussion: I still think that the most sensible would be to introduce a restriction for a blunt tipped knife, both folders and fixed blades.
Most crimes with blades are stab wounds. A minority are slash wounds.

I sincerely hope you're joking Janne. Do you really think that making the possession of a blade with a point illegal will stop those who wish to use a blade with a point for harm?

It's already illegal to carry a knife with the intent to harm with it. In fact it's illegal to carry ANY object with the intent to harm with it.

Please think before you post.

 

[Janne]

So why is there a perceived need to change the law?
Do you see what I mean?

We all know that the new proposed change will not change the behavior or knife access of the criminals. The state is trying hard to, but will fail.

Just as with the ban of legal handguns.

Blunting the tip will lessen the 'spur of the moment' stabbings, unless the criminal takes the work to create a sharp tip.

It is an unsolvable problem, that criminals arm themselves. Any law will affect only us law abiding citizens.

I sincerely hope you're joking Janne. Do you really think that making the possession of a blade with a point illegal will stop those who wish to use a blade with a point for harm?

It's already illegal to carry a knife with the intent to harm with it. In fact it's illegal to carry ANY object with the intent to harm with it.

Please think before you post.

 

[mark.177]

I just wanted to know in which ways people try to influence the law makers.

Gen. discussion: I still think that the most sensible would be to introduce a restriction for a blunt tipped knife, both folders and fixed blades.
Most crimes with blades are stab wounds. A minority are slash wounds.

i cant believe some of what im reading here, really? some need a tip some dont. i think as adults we should be trusted with pointy things! not since kindergarten have i had to use round nosed scissors.
a fine tip allows you to do many things you cant do with a blunt tip, cutting in tight spaces for one, removing splinters, delicate minor surgery.

banning pointy knives is like banning pointy sticks? what is the point? its not hard to make something blunt pointy how is it going to stop the criminally minded? having something sharp doesnt make you a killer? thats something thats in you or isnt. being told i cant be trusted with pointy things because i might be more inclined to hurt someone!

you can sharpen anything with little effort on a curb stone and turn it into a weapon so really? what is the point?

 

[Janne]

With your arguments the change in law is pointless. Or?

Knife related criminal injuries are on a steep rise. The state wants to try to stop and maybe even reverse that.

So what would you guys propose should be done to stop or lessen the knife related criminal injuries?

I am trying to come with ideas that could help and all you do is to sink my ideas? Come now, propose something else that might work then!

Yes, me too had to use a blunt scissors in Arts and Crafts in "little school". My first knife was a blunt nosed Mora.



FYI I sometimes work at the local state hospital, in the A&E. Facial injuries.

From the top of my head these are my unscientific observations:
Short bladed knife criminal woundings = stabbings
Long bladed bladed criminal woundings ( type machete) = slash wounds

 

[Chui]

I sincerely hope you're joking Janne. Do you really think that making the possession of a blade with a point illegal will stop those who wish to use a blade with a point for harm?

It's already illegal to carry a knife with the intent to harm with it. In fact it's illegal to carry ANY object with the intent to harm with it.

Please think before you post.

- absolutely.

If knives were suddenly all gone, kids would jolly along to the ironmongers, buy chisels, screwdrivers and small crowbars........and simply grind the ends into a sharp point.

If we're to do anything with the proposals and those who created them, we need to educate them - show them how BCUK/BB/EM have many members who have innocently and harmlessly used knives for many, many years.

I consider it utter folly that the proposals believe there is a danger criminals will force entry to a knifey person's house and steal their valuable knives.........what's going to stop criminals entering anyone's house and stealing their carving knives and kitchen knives - jeez, they're not even in a safe, and, they're on display in the kitchen. It beggars belief.

There's no point trying to create alternatives [knives without a point ......pun intended] - no, I'd perhaps suggest we need to think of ways and means of getting what we do, how well we do it, how safely we all do it, across to these people in govt.

 

[daveO]

So why is there a perceived need to change the law?

Most of the proposals aren't a change to the law, the laws are already existing and these are updates to keep up with modern times. It's like paedophiles arguing that they should be allowed internet child porn because the law was set before the internet was invented.

Here is a 3 page catalogue of Gerber assisted opening knives
http://www.gerbergear.com/Knives/Assisted
The existing flick knife law bans them but because the spring assisted mechanism is triggered by the thumb stud on the blade not by the usual button that was the norm back in 1959 when the law was set the current definition causes a potential loophole. The consultation document implicitly states that this is what is trying to be avoided.

The same with internet purchases. Online retailers have been taking the p**s and have been caught not living up to their responsibilities, now they're facing being stuck with stricter control of the existing law.

 

[mark.177]

With your arguments the change in law is pointless. Or?

Knife related criminal injuries are on a steep rise. The state wants to try to stop and maybe even reverse that.

So what would you guys propose should be done to stop or lessen the knife related criminal injuries?

I am trying to come with ideas that could help and all you do is to sink my ideas? Come now, propose something else that might work then!

Yes, me too had to use a blunt scissors in Arts and Crafts in "little school". My first knife was a blunt nosed Mora.



FYI I sometimes work at the local state hospital, in the A&E. Facial injuries.

From the top of my head these are my unscientific observations:
Short bladed knife criminal woundings = stabbings
Long bladed bladed criminal woundings ( type machete) = slash wounds

stop cutting police budgets! enforce current laws prohibiting under aged sales. obviously people arnt checking and have been getting away with it. and ensure signatures upon delivery of items ordered online. the whole reason for the internet sales ban argument is due to an under aged child steeling parents credit card and leaving notes for the delivery driver to leave items in a shed, to avoid having to sign for it. its not rocket science.

 

[hughtrimble]

The same with internet purchases. Online retailers have been taking the p**s and have been caught not living up to their responsibilities, now they're facing being stuck with stricter control of the existing law.

Exactly, they've been caught not obeying the current law by selling to under 18s, Amazon being one of the big names selling blades and age-restricted items such as alcohol to under 18s. So they're breaking that law, but nothing has happened to them for breaking the law.

So passing a new law will do what exactly, if they're not obeying already-enacted laws?

 

[Tiley]

As has been mentioned, the key to this lies in education. As a bushcraft community, we need to educate the government that there is a significant proportion of the population who utilise knives as tools and never, ever see or use them as weapons. Then, we need to educate the wider public of all ages that a knife is a very useful and versatile tool - much as they do in Scandanavia. This latter drive has the added benefit of teaching people both safe usage of knives as well as heightening their appreciation of the natural environment in which they are generally used.

Sadly, those whose purpose is nefarious or criminal will always find something to sharpen and use for horrific purpose; but, if we can grow the community that understands and respects the safe usage of knives or any cutting instrument as tools, we might be able to limit the number of atrocities committed.

Yes, it is idealistic, arguably unrealistic; however, in introducing legislation that makes the sale of knives difficult, the government will drive the sale of cutting tools underground, which is an even more terrifying prospect.

I will certainly write to my MP but I am rather dubious about the survey as it does not allow a full, reasoned presentation of my point of view as a user of knives for the purposes and pursuit of bushcraft; it just presents the government with statistics which, as we all know all too well, can be presented in a very disingenuous manner to suit their own self-serving, political ends.