The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders

[C_Claycomb]

Indeed, stick to facts when contacting your MPs! Take examples from the government documents. However, the concerns about how laws that are open to interpretation, may be interpreted, is very real.

DaveO,
Apathy is our enemy here. Heinnie are having to contemplate half their business collapsing and laying off staff, to me that is a good reason to try to get people off the bench, because if we don't react, if any of us do the usual British thing of saying "Meh, nothing to do with me...ban away", then we all stand to lose out. Maybe not immediately, it took four years before Harris fell afoul of the interpretation of the 1988 CJA, and it wasn't until 1997 that I had my near miss having never heard of case law, and having been carrying a sub3-inch lock knife as EDC.

I came in talking about single handed knives because they have been banned in other parts of Europe and it would be about the worst interpretation of what they are proposing. To me it is also a very logical step for the law to take, even if it seems totally illogical to all of us. The people writing those proposals didn't know much about knives, and when an offer was made to explain the types of knives to them, their response was "they should all be banned".

 

[daveO]

It will be interesting how the law change will be.

I do not get this: if the seller declares on the package it contains knitting needles, he can send it without any checks and be collected by a 3 year old.
Knifes - collected by over-18.

So I guess the criminally minded will buy knifes from sellers that are happy to mis describe the content of the package?
The international online trade is already doing that with several illegal goods like medication, legal highs and so on.

I know exactly the design if the oldfashioned spring assisted flick knives. The new proposal, what is the change? Which of todays knives will be banned?

It isnt illegal to sell knitting needles to under 18s so no age check is required. The checks the government has done have shown 80% of online retailers aren't doing age checks so the law needs to change somehow to force them to.

The flick knife proposal seems like a simple rewording. The consultation document says:

'The current definition of flick knives in the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 is
outdated and refers to the mechanism that activates the blade being in the handle. We will
delete the reference to the switch blade mechanism being in the handle, as manufacturers
now place the mechanism in a part of the knife that can be argued is part of the blade.
This means the prohibition on the sale, manufacture and importing of flick knives cannot
be circumvented through changes in their design.'

Seems pretty clear to me that it wont affect non spring assisted knives. Personally I think this a storm in a tea cup and apart from minor inconvenience for some people having to go to the post office to pick up their parcel it will barely register as a change.

 

[C_Claycomb]

What is even more worrying is the proposal to ban .50 cal rifles snd what is described as “rapid firing rifles”.

To my mind the calibre ban sounds like a way to start banning certain types of calibres or cartridges, the other one is a way to eventually ban all semi automatic guns.

Where have you been The start happened decades ago!

I think this is very like the flick knife aspect, only much much easier for them to do and justify, and with far less potential impact on the general populace. They have already banned all pistols (other than long barrel hand cannons) and semi-automatic centre fire rifles. The only semi autos allowed are .22 rimfire, and shot guns. Everything here that looks like a semi-auto rifle requires its charging handle to be cranked for every shot. I had to look up the two rifles mentioned. Both use small, fast, easy to actuate releases to chamber the next round. They almost as fast as a regular semi-auto.

I am not a shooter, but know that there are controls on 12ga slugs already.

The 50cal justification is a bit daft, but its dang hard to argue that there is any negative for the populace at large, or that it will end anyone's business, or criminalise the innocent. Pointless perhaps, and a media stunt, but I don't see it as a step towards anything more. Would be interesting to hear from UK shooters. (US views are not really applicable here).





So...what about the Corrosive Substances? anyone seen problems with that? I have never needed to carry drain cleaner anywhere other than home from the shop.

 

[Janne]

The state can justify (rightly so) to ban a gun, other implement, calibers, whatever, if there is no use ( sport or hunting) for it.

It is when they start sneaking in restrictions or ban things people use that it is becoming unacceptable.

I do not think anybody reflects on that we can not own a fully functional 8.8 cm Flak with ammo.

It sounds like there are knives with “blade assistance” placed outside the handle?

The 18 age limit I do not discuss as you all know my views.

Btw, I might live outside Britain now, but am a British subject and will return one day, part of the year anyway....

 

[Janne]

Maybe the local Police station can act as a collection point?

 

[mikehill]

Most are now closed to visitors now Janne, and the one that are open are under staffed.

 

[Janne]

The nearest one, and the Officer in Charge can do it.

 

[slowworm]

Would be interesting to hear from UK shooters.

Well, I think the "rapid firing rifle" ban was always likely as, AFAIK, it used a loophole in the semi-auto centre fire ban. As for the 50 cal, I gather they've tried to stop people using them by limiting the places they can be shot. The governments reason for the ban seem to be at odds with knife legislation, i.e. they want to ban the firearms from being legally held due to the risk of someone dodgy pinching them. Surely that would mean all knifes need to be banned from being privately held!

At the end of the day though the bans seem rather pointless when it is so easy to get hold of illegal firearms. E.g.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39264664

Spanish Police have released striking pictures of a huge weapons haul seized from an organised crime group.
It includes over 10,000 assault rifles, machine guns, pistols, revolvers, and 400 shells and grenades.
The guns and ammunition were seized in January during an operation against firearms trafficking.

 

[Chui]

Indeed, stick to facts when contacting your MPs! Take examples from the government documents. However, the concerns about how laws that are open to interpretation, may be interpreted, is very real.

DaveO,
Apathy is our enemy here. Heinnie are having to contemplate half their business collapsing and laying off staff, to me that is a good reason to try to get people off the bench, because if we don't react, if any of us do the usual British thing of saying "Meh, nothing to do with me...ban away", then we all stand to lose out. Maybe not immediately, it took four years before Harris fell afoul of the interpretation of the 1988 CJA, and it wasn't until 1997 that I had my near miss having never heard of case law, and having been carrying a sub3-inch lock knife as EDC.

I came in talking about single handed knives because they have been banned in other parts of Europe and it would be about the worst interpretation of what they are proposing. To me it is also a very logical step for the law to take, even if it seems totally illogical to all of us. The people writing those proposals didn't know much about knives, and when an offer was made to explain the types of knives to them, their response was "they should all be banned".

From what I have understood, "the people writing those proposals" would take a folder, hold it in a certain way, then bang their wrist down on their thigh to get the blade to open - and declare it was a gravity knife.

Afraid, without trying to scaremonger, that we may see many, many more simple folders classified as 'weapons'.

Did you realise this too:

 

[Nice65]

They intend to broaden the definition of flick knives. Basically they're going after flippers, and other assisted openers. And no doubt looking at Germany's law 42 where one handed opening and that lock are banned.

No, OHO are not legal for every day carry in Germany. Other knives are fine, just not legal every day carry. It's actually legal to own an auto side opener if the blade is under 8.5cm. It's not that different as it is here, but their EDC knives must be two hand openers. As has been mentioned, Chinese whispers don't help.

It'll be flippers and assisted openers that will be concentrated on. To a non knife person an assisted opener is every bit the flick knife. I have a few and they lead to gasps of "that's a flick knife" without fail. Most flippers have largish blades so they have the weight to deploy, and are mainly tactical in design. As long as I can have a knife that I can open one handed, I won't really miss the flippers and assisteds.

However, as a responsible knife owner, I object to being babied by a government who assume I'm possibly going to become a stabbing criminal because I own some excellent flippers and assisted openers that give me a smile when I use them within my own home.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#Germany

Hi Chui

 

[Wander]

Survey done.
So presumably that'll be the end of Stanley knives as well - a one-handed, assisted-opening knife?
That'll bugger a lot of tradesmen and the manufacturers themselves.

 

[daveO]

Indeed, stick to facts when contacting your MPs! Take examples from the government documents. However, the concerns about how laws that are open to interpretation, may be interpreted, is very real.

DaveO,
Apathy is our enemy here. Heinnie are having to contemplate half their business collapsing and laying off staff, to me that is a good reason to try to get people off the bench, because if we don't react, if any of us do the usual British thing of saying "Meh, nothing to do with me...ban away", then we all stand to lose out. Maybe not immediately, it took four years before Harris fell afoul of the interpretation of the 1988 CJA, and it wasn't until 1997 that I had my near miss having never heard of case law, and having been carrying a sub3-inch lock knife as EDC.

I came in talking about single handed knives because they have been banned in other parts of Europe and it would be about the worst interpretation of what they are proposing. To me it is also a very logical step for the law to take, even if it seems totally illogical to all of us. The people writing those proposals didn't know much about knives, and when an offer was made to explain the types of knives to them, their response was "they should all be banned".

Heinnie are one, if not the, biggest knife retailers in the UK. They have a great reputation and as far as I know have always been very strict on their age checks. Their main competition comes from shadier retailers who form the 80% stated figure that dont bother with proper age checks. Do you really think that Heinnie will be the business having problems as a result of this? All that changes is that their clients will have to go to the post office to pick up parcels and as a bonus 80% of their competition will be in trouble. But still if you want to believe their hype and stock up on their products now while you can as they suggest then go ahead.

You're making a massive leap from a minor change to the definition of a flick knife to the total ban of all one handed opening knives. There is no mention of such a proposal in any of the documents and the impact assessment goes as far as saying there is no impact on anyone as the type of knife proposed doesnt actually exist yet and this is a preemtive law. Apathy may be harmful but so is scaremongering and spreading missinformation.

 

[slowworm]

Erm, I've bought a lot of knives online, from retailers large and small, and I've never had my age checked other than from the use of a credit card. As the proposals state, people use other peoples cards, so realistically something probably needs to be done.

Now if the government was sensible I'd have thought a better method of age validation would be sensible?

 

[mikehill]

Heinnies do checks you don't see, electoral register for instance.

 

[daveO]

Exactly the point. Heinnie asked me for photo ID to back up the card and delivery address but theyre the only ones who ever have.

Any restriction like this is easy to get around though however you do it but they have to try.

 

[slowworm]

Heinnies do checks you don't see, electoral register for instance.

Which just checks the name on the card you've borrowed.

The problems is if you're buying a knife with the intention of stabbing someone are you going to worry about borrowing mum or dads credit card are you?

Not that the proposed changes will do much as criminals will just find a way round the law such and pinching knifes of course.

 

[NS40]

Survey completed here too.

 

[Laurentius]

I think I am possibly more concerned about brexit and the inability perhaps to import blades thereafter.

Legislation has pursued and absurd course, I cannot own a so called "Samurai sword" but I have been able to import an even longer blade because it was not curved. I think at the end of the day we all end up having to forge our own blades and that would be all hell broke loose

 

[Fadcode]

Surely the way to fight this ban, is actually to go along with it and support it..........for Instance
There is a proposal that the police check the knives you have at home to make sure they are not illegal..............well why don't we ask the Police to do it, just to make sure we are legal.(this may increase the cost of this legislation to an absurd level, but I do have a green serrated edge bread knife)

At the same time, we should get permission from the Police in writing to carry Nail Files, 6 inch nails, axes, machetes,long screwdrivers, bike spokes, knitting needles, metal tent pegs etc, etc, and any other sharp implement that will not be covered by this new legislation, to make sure we don't inadvertently break the law..................or will they all be banned, it seems to me that unless they are banned, they will become the new carry weapons of this mindless minority who are out to cause harm.

The other thing we must face is this, I have never been asked to verify my age, by anyone who I have bought knives from,other than face to face,and i have bought a few (except one seller, Wessex Blades, who quite rightly wanted ID before he would sell me a Knife, and I sent him a photo of me holding my driving licence), so we only have ourselves to blame as well as the Amazons, and others.
I actually got banned from a well known Forum, for pointing this out, saying that just saying "by agreeing to buy this knife is proof you are over 18" would not be counted as due diligence, if the buyer said he bought a knife from you.

As intelligent citizens it should be quite obvious that something has to be done to halt knife violence in our community, the way the Gov't proposes to do it is in my opinion not the right way, a system similar to Gun Purchase would have been enough, basically a register of buyers, sellers and retailers would have to inform the Police with details of the purchaser, and obviously the fact their d.o.b has been checked, a system similar to buying a TV, where the retailer has to inform the TV Licensing Agency that a TV has been purchased and the buyer may not have a licence.

There are many faults with the Gov't proposals, and although they may cut out persons under 18 purchasing a knife delivered to their home, they would still be able to get it delivered to a local garage, Argos, etc, or simply get a friend over 18 to make the purchase, and unless there was a register of the buyers kept, there seem little point in the ban ,as the Police will not know who has bought a knife anyway..And the fact they have bought a knife is useless information anyway, until the knife is used in a crime.

I do think we should all take some action in this matter, write to your MP, get magazines to back us, well known TV Bushcrafters and the like should be speaking up on our behalf, as they all sell knives from their sites so their sales will be hit..............but before we do anything like that first make sure we are complying with the law, I would like to see instructions on sites like this emphasising the need for ID checks, pointing out the easy way to do it, and the importance of keeping the details just in case.and a warning that these checks will take place before you can purchase a knife. Remember this problem has arisen by the likes of Amazon and their ilk, not by the makers and sellers on sites like this, but it will be us who bear the brunt of this legislation if it comes about.

 

[Samon]

Done the silly list thing. Found it very subjective and coercive towards to the YES BAN BAN BAN outcome. Luckily most stupid will get bored after a few pages and just give up, leaving a majority of sensible replies.