Sub Zero Crew (Fahrenheit not Centigrade)

[DUCky]

Bob just likes to spice up the discussion

There should be a minimum kit list for any member going on a group outing into the arctic. Basic kit to prevent you from freezing. Watching other people die was a great passtime in the old days but is not usually part of the holiday experience nowadays

That doesn't mean it has to be a walk in the park. Actually the mental challenge of roughing it on a spruce bed whilst trying to keep a fire going will be much harder if you have a nice cosy sleeping bag and downmat within reach. Everyone can go as far as their skillset and comfortzone will let them.

 

[tedw]

Spot on, DUCky; everyone goes to the edge of their own comfort zone, but this sort of trip is not for the ill-equipped or inexperienced - or passengers!

 

[forestwalker]

So Bob, are you happy to take full responsibility for Drew and other inexperienced peoples safety on such an event? I know I'm not.

A beginners course in Lappland, away from the village, main outline (his is how we did it the last time I was apart of the team that taught such a course).

Communications: the ability to reach an outside contact at any time, day or night

Transport: having a snowmobile, experienced driver and a sled availble. Either on site, or on call. (e.g. if Billy is hypothermic you bung him in the sled and take him to a hospital, same for any of a number of other serious accidents).

Minimum equipment list. And check that people actually bring the stuff they have been told to bring (e.g. a "winter bag" very nominally rated -15 C is not sufficient...).

Instructors bring some spares on the kit front...

A few days (1-3) of training before you do the field portion. Ski training, theory on hypothermia and frostbite, etc

Somewhere to go "hide" if it turns nasty. When we run the winter basic course we do not go out overnight if it is colder then -25 C. Simply not great a risk of injury. There are cabins and kaatas in lots of places, and while a dozen in one of them might not be nice, it is preferable to risking ones life.

We were fortunate not to face extreme conditions on the Arctic course that has just run. There I would agree with the statement made above but had the conditions been -30°C or colder, like the temperatures faced at this years Jokkmokk Market things could have been very different. One does not have to use it, just have it in case it is actually needed.

I'm afraid I think attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

I agree. Either one runs it as an advanced course, or a a basic course with all the extras that that entails. And even an advanced course should have a safety net: in -35 C it is quite easy to die within hours.

In this case my suggestion is a static camp, not *too* far from road or house (5-10 km?), with at least one heated shelter (tent/kaata/hut) available, a clear set of rules (prior experience, minimum equipment checklist, etc), and some thought to emergencies. Then people could day-trip or play with crafts/skills (making roycraft snowshoes, build quinchies, ice fishing, etc) or do day-trips (etc) away from that camp. We could do it with travel, and new camps every(?) night, that is not cast in concrete, but I think a base camp would be the option with widest appeal (pulling a fully loaded sled can be brutally hard work in deep snow and hilly terrain).

 

[Imagedude]

So Bob, are you happy to take full responsibility for Drew and other inexperienced peoples safety on such an event? I know I'm not.

No, everyone is responsible for themselves only but everyone should be prepared to help those who fall into difficulty. If Drew (or others) wish to travel overland with me then a six day course will not be sufficient qualification, he'll need a good few years mountaineering experience to qualify. If he wants to visit a Swedish car boot sale for a few days and camp at a local campsite then a few extra pairs of socks, gloves, jumpers and a good sleeping bag will see him right. A few thousand (hundred?) visitors to the market can't be wrong.

We were fortunate not to face extreme conditions on the Arctic course that has just run. There I would agree with the statement made above but had the conditions been -30°C or colder, like the temperatures faced at this years Jokkmokk Market things could have been very different.

No we did not face 'extreme' conditions but we did face conditions that are more likely to cause trouble than simple consistant low temperatures. If things get too gnarly for those attending the market they could always book in at a local B&B.

I'm afraid I think attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

I'm glad you use the word 'project', I hope it implies that you want the trip to be more than a visit to the market. Having 'minimum requirements' to my way of thinking implies that those of us with more cold weather/mountaineering experience will be providing some sort of insurance for those without. This is a dangerous road to go down, in effect having requirements is saying that if you conform to 'our' list of kit/experience then you should be OK to attend. If a person who does conform to a set of stated requirements then has a misshap they could claim that they were led into danger by the set of requirements which gave them a false sense of security. People must understand that we are a bunch of individuals who may 'coincidentally' meet up at remote locations (and markets) occasionally. Such events must be done on an attend at your peril basis.

It most certainly is NOT! I seriously doubt you ever had a serious arcticecperience, judging by your remarks.

Arctic no, cold weather and mixed conditions, yes plenty. Tricky weather is not confined to the Arctic.


With all due respect, but I think this is quite a dumb remark!
It should be a learningexperience, preferably without any loss of limb or life! Being out there by -25 or lower will be experience enough,
I guess some people have different views on the subject, are you telling me that all those people who travel to the event and camp locally are all hairy-arsed cold weather warriors? Is there a major loss of life and limb at the market every year?

If there are people present without experience in arctic conditions a safetynet would be a very wise addition.

Yes, there is a safety net, local hotels and B&Bs. I dare say they'll all be fully booked but I'm sure they'd let someone thaw out in front of a fire for a few hours. If there activities planned involving travel away from a populated area then the situation changes but PLBs are now available for less than £200 so that's the safety aspect covered. Remember, this is not a training event, it's down to the individual to work within their limits.

Bob just likes to spice up the discussion

Exactly, we need robust discussion to ensure that we look at the situation from all perspectives.

There should be a minimum kit list for any member going on a group outing into the arctic. Basic kit to prevent you from freezing. Watching other people die was a great passtime in the old days but is not usually part of the holiday experience nowadays
For some of us mountaineers it has been part of the experience, about once every 4 years so far.

That doesn't mean it has to be a walk in the park. Actually the mental challenge of roughing it on a spruce bed whilst trying to keep a fire going will be much harder if you have a nice cosy sleeping bag and downmat within reach. Everyone can go as far as their skillset and comfortzone will let them.

Here you have hit the crux of the issue, what will we be doing?

It's good that we are seeing that different people have different aspirations for this event. I suggest that if we do go to the market and surrounding area it's done not as some sort of group visit but as a set of individuals who are all attending the same event and have decided to meet-up for a bit of socialising at night.

 

[Imagedude]

Why not run a simple Risk Mangement analysis for an Arctic Meet. That way you'll understand the 'risks' better and if you can mitigate them.

If folk want to rock up to any Arctic meet 'you' organise and you have a prerequisite for attendance of prior experience or course attendance how are you going to vet / confirm that experience before the meet starts??

'You' say attendance of a professionally run course or similar experience such as military training, should be a minimum requirement for people joining this project.

'I' say ok I've got ML2 from when I served with 3 Commando Brigade and have Yeti'd with me Prussers Planks more times than you had a hot wet and nutty...

Prove I have... or havent...

You've addressed my main worry with your post. 'We' are not providing a course, any form of insurance, making travel arrangements for anyone or making any promises. It's merely a group of people who may, coincidentally, be in the same area at the same time, wondering if it's worth getting together at night for a bit of a chin wag.

 

[DUCky]

Here you have hit the crux of the issue, what will we be doing?

Right you are Bob, I for one would look at the market as an amusing start or finish of the trip, but doing some trekking and shelter building would be my main objective. A couple of days trekking with ski's/snowshoes and pulk would be on my list, combined with a couple of days in camp trying to go without bag and mat in a natural shelter.

I agree that it will be unlikely that we could make one trip itinerary that will satisfy everyone. Having subgroups around a 'mission control centre' would seem most practical.

 

[Teepee]

Right you are Bob, I for one would look at the market as an amusing start or finish of the trip, but doing some trekking and shelter building would be my main objective. A couple of days trekking with ski's/snowshoes and pulk would be on my list, combined with a couple of days in camp trying to go without bag and mat in a natural shelter.

I agree that it will be unlikely that we could make one trip itinerary that will satisfy everyone. Having subgroups around a 'mission control centre' would seem most practical.

+1 on all of that, although personally, I'd like to be out for longer-probably a week.

I'd like to see the market, but I can't see me spending more than a day at it unless theres a 'Lasso a Norwegian blonde woman for your pulk' stall.

 

[DUCky]

A week is also what I had in mind

 

[udamiano]

Yep would also be looking at least a week, possibly two weeks depending on what's available

 

[Teepee]

Yep would also be looking at least a week, possibly two weeks depending on what's available

Just to clarify, a week spent messing about with birch twigs and sledge knots, 2 weeks in total would be fantastic.

Shelter building is prohibited in Sweden's parks and forests though, needs more consideration.

 

[Imagedude]

I think we need to investigate our accomodation options further before starting to make hard and fast plans. Could one of our Swedish speaking friends contact the Jokkmokk Tourist Office and discover our options? I guess they'd try to discourage wild camping and try to hire us a cabin but it's worth a try.
I see a week as being the absolute minimum time in country, I'll be out for 2+ weeks regardless.

Anyone fancy staying on a cheese farm? 6 berth cabin @£400 per week.
http://www.skabram.se/en/tourism/camping/

 

[Ivanhoe]

Shelter building is prohibited in Sweden's parks and forests though, needs more consideration.

It's prohibited in Natural Parks and reserves, but I'm sure we will get permission
from any major forest owner or company, if we ask them nicely and tell them we're
an experienced bushcraft group. The kind that leaves no garbage, etc...

 

[udamiano]

I think we need to investigate our accomodation options further before starting to make hard and fast plans. Could one of our Swedish speaking friends contact the Jokkmokk Tourist Office and discover our options? I guess they'd try to discourage wild camping and try to hire us a cabin but it's worth a try.
I see a week as being the absolute minimum time in country, I'll be out for 2+ weeks regardless.

Anyone fancy staying on a cheese farm? 6 berth cabin @£400 per week.
http://www.skabram.se/en/tourism/camping/

They don't look half bad, but it does mean that well be sort of tied down to one area. But £400 split is still not a bad price for a weeks accommodation, your right though this does need a bit more research before anyone starts booking flights

 

[Ivanhoe]

I'll look in to this a little next week.

Here's a company (no affiliation) that probably could arrange an amazing
stay in Jokkmokk. The only limit being the thickness of your wallet.

http://samelandsresor.com/index.php?id=162


I'm not saying anybody have to use them or any other company, but
there are people on site that make a living out of arranging tourist travel.

It sometimes sounds in the thread like it's the dark side of the moon
we're going to...

Imagine the experience, know how and social connections a company
like that must have just to stay alive in a small place like Jokkmokk.

Have a look through their gallery.
http://samelandsresor.com/index.php?id=258






And another example from Jokkmokk:
http://www.outdoorlapland.com/
In English:
http://laplandraftingcafe.se/en/start/

 

[Wayland]

It's good that we are seeing that different people have different aspirations for this event. I suggest that if we do go to the market and surrounding area it's done not as some sort of group visit but as a set of individuals who are all attending the same event and have decided to meet-up for a bit of socialising at night.

All very good points raised in this post Bob and mostly in line with what I'm suggesting. By having a group framework we may be able to get sites or facilities that would be difficult to access through individual bookings though.

You've addressed my main worry with your post. 'We' are not providing a course, any form of insurance, making travel arrangements for anyone or making any promises. It's merely a group of people who may, coincidentally, be in the same area at the same time, wondering if it's worth getting together at night for a bit of a chin wag.

I think this is a critical point. Of course, as decent human beings we are going to look out for each other, it's exactly that sort of thing that experience teaches you. As has been pointed out though, there is no way of verifying peoples experience so we have to rely upon an honour system and we can certainly not accept responsibility for anyone who chooses to flout such suggested minimum requirements.

Right you are Bob, I for one would look at the market as an amusing start or finish of the trip, but doing some trekking and shelter building would be my main objective. A couple of days trekking with ski's/snowshoes and pulk would be on my list, combined with a couple of days in camp trying to go without bag and mat in a natural shelter.

I agree that it will be unlikely that we could make one trip itinerary that will satisfy everyone. Having subgroups around a 'mission control centre' would seem most practical.

One of the great things about the meets and moots is that once people are at a venue that has been organised, perhaps with some facilities, they are then free to do whatever they wish.

I would probably spend a couple of days around the market, a day at the museum, a day or so doing some photography, some time just chilling out and a few days wandering about or maybe some dog sledding. That's not a program or a schedule, it's just how I live my life.

I have no doubt others would do things differently but it seems to me that here we have a variety of opportunities all in one place. Something for everyone as it were.

 

[Chris the Cat]

This is heading in the right direction gents, some very good points made
and looks like it could be affordable!
( Collection started already-£12 so far! )
Well done fellas.
Chris.

 

[udamiano]

I suppose the first thing really is to get a firm feel for the number interested in going, we could then possibly do some deals on thing like accommodation based on a group booking, and see if we again get any discounts based on group purchases.

i know its a bit off yet, but it might help

anyway shall we start an interested in going list, this doesn't confirm your going but just a real interest only at this stage

1. udamiano

 

[Teepee]

I suppose the first thing really is to get a firm feel for the number interested in going, we could then possibly do some deals on thing like accommodation based on a group booking, and see if we again get any discounts based on group purchases.

i know its a bit off yet, but it might help

anyway shall we start an interested in going list, this doesn't confirm your going but just a real interest only at this stage

1. udamiano
2. Teepee

 

[udamiano]

just did a quick look see and there are several options

Accommodation:

As Imagedude above suggests, a nice cabin for 6 for about £400 a week

Jokkmokk has a campsite on the edge of town - not found prices yet

Travel:

Prices from the UK to sweden change that much I've not looked at them yet
however the main problem will be getting to Jokkmokk as it only has a small local airport none of the major companies go there, other than charter flights (chink chink, ker-ching).
however they do go to Gallivare, which is about 50 miles away the cost is about £350 return
or
fly into Stockholm and get the sleeper train to Jokkmokk (one Change) in style (private cabin) for about the same price as the flight to Gallivare.
Personally I like the train option, as you get to see the countryside and Im not in that much of a hurry. the price go down quite a bit if your willing to share a cabin, unto six berth !

The price are however based on this time of year (2012) so will probably change.

 

[forestwalker]

fly into Stockholm and get the sleeper train to Jokkmokk (one Change) in style (private cabin) for about the same price as the flight to Gallivare.
Personally I like the train option, as you get to see the countryside and Im not in that much of a hurry. the price go down quite a bit if your willing to share a cabin, unto six berth !

The six bunk train sleeper cabin is a good solution if you are a group that can fill one. Then you can store packs skis, pulks etc without caring about others, chat and drink tea to your hearts content. Also, with a group one can easilly leave a guard while the rest goes to the restaurant carriage (if one is paranoid). I've done the Stockholm-Kiruna run that way before, and it is a good solution.