Its happening with TB.
Yeah choice is great, right to the point where it adversely affects others.
Some cultural differences...
- Thread starter Skaukraft
- Start date
Its happening with TB.
Yeah choice is great, right to the point where it adversely affects others.
Surely not? If malaria and TB are going to morph, they will morph anyway in countries where childhood vaccination is not the norm. Both diseases are prevalent worldwide so a few kids more or less being immunised in a subset of countries is hardly likely to have any statistical effect on the diseases ability to mutate. TB vaccination only confers 80% chance of immunisation in any case - plenty of hosts are still available in the remaining 10+ million in the UK alone who are still able to contract the disease.
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It's a bit like the being able to buy antibiotics over the counter in the US and dafties here not finishing courses of them, we are loosing a wonderful tool against infection, look at the mortality rates pre antibiotics for some fairly simple afflictions and it's scarey. (Then again it may thin our population down a bit).
Ah. No I agree with the statement as far as it goes about the kids themselves. But I suppose it depends on other factors (Toddy brought up one I hadn't considered) and just how many might choose not to vaccinate. If the number is significant, it might well affect enough students to render the cost of educating the remainder prohibitive. Granted that's a stretch. Or I supopose the "herd immunity" others have aluded too.
And as I said the unvaccinated children could easily carri it back to other parts of the population (away from the schools)
I'm not sure where you got that info but it's untrue. antibiotics require an Rx over here.
........and we already can't keep up.
The only reason there's hysteria about vaccines is simply that the lifestyle and health of those in the West is so good. The reality is that when disease kills more than the vaccine (perhaps) damages, by a thousand fold, then everyone wants their child vaccinated. When the disease has more or less been tamed and eradicated, they refuse to 'risk' their precious jewel
.....and in doing so they risk that the disease re-establishes and risks everyone since viruses mutate.
Smallpox is gone, thankfully.
Polio should be gone
Tetanus ......if you dig in the earth, and you do not have your tetanus jabs, frankly you are an idiot.
Lymes disease.....how many worry about tick bites these days ? I bet most everyone who wanders the hills. Vaccination or no vaccination ? I know what I'd choose for both me and mine.
Diptheria still kills world wide; it doesn't here now because we vaccinate and doctors know how to deal with it; similarly with scarlet fever. My 84 year old aunt has been deaf since she was six years old because of scarlet fever, spent eight weeks in a fever hospital because of the disease.....one wee jab and it's no more.
Freedom of choice; yes, I support that. Won't stop me considering someone a selfish idiot because they choose to act on it though when there is no underlying health reason.
Not going to start a rammy over this.
Consider the realities of childhood disease in third world countries....that was us less than a hundred years ago. Which health and longevity would you wish on your children and your children's children ?
M
It's an own goal.
The only reason there's hysteria about vaccines is simply that the lifestyle and health of those in the West is so good. The reality is that when disease kills more than the vaccine (perhaps) damages, by a thousand fold, then everyone wants their child vaccinated. When the disease has more or less been tamed and eradicated, they refuse to 'risk' their precious jewel
.....and in doing so they risk that the disease re-establishes and risks everyone since viruses mutate.Smallpox is gone, thankfully.
Polio should be gone
Tetanus ......if you dig in the earth, and you do not have your tetanus jabs, frankly you are an idiot.
Lymes disease.....how many worry about tick bites these days ? I bet most everyone who wanders the hills. Vaccination or no vaccination ? I know what I'd choose for both me and mine.
Diptheria still kills world wide; it doesn't here now because we vaccinate and doctors know how to deal with it; similarly with scarlet fever. My 84 year old aunt has been deaf since she was six years old because of scarlet fever, spent eight weeks in a fever hospital because of the disease.....one wee jab and it's no more.
Freedom of choice; yes, I support that. Won't stop me considering someone a selfish idiot because they choose to act on it though when there is no underlying health reason.
Not going to start a rammy over this.
Consider the realities of childhood disease in third world countries....that was us less than a hundred years ago. Which health and longevity would you wish on your children and your children's children ?
M
It's an own goal.
Still not buying it. If its so vital for public health, why not forcibly vaccinate the entire population? How many illegal immigrants in the US with not records? More than ten million? Big old potentially uinvaccinated pool of disease hosts there.
I suppose those home schooled children never go to the mall? Or the cinema? They never have himan contact by which they can spread diseases?
To me there is simply no logical correlation between education and immunisation. If immunisation is vital, it is vital for the whole population - not just a subset of it.
No real arguments from me on that logic. The point is however that there IS freedom of choice. They can't force anyone apart from the military to be vaccinated. Not even school children. However the ability to exempt them from going to schools is a powerful leverage to accomplish it and thus vaccinate a significant portion of the population.
BTW, it's also required of most health workers as a job requirement. At least most of the shots from the school series are. Others are optional. They don't have to get the shots; but they can't get or keep their jobs if they don't.
And no. Most home schooled children actually lead a fairly sequestered life here.
The illegal immigrants are a hot political issue partly for the reason you cite. Although their children (if attending school) also have to present a certificate of vaccination to enroll.
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I stand corrected yet again sir, I thought it was only certain states that required a script. Sorry.
Some interesting info here though http://kissurvival.com/survival-antibiotics/
Cheers,
GB
Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware that Canada dispenced them OTC. As for the Mexican source, I would be hesitant to trust them. In any case I'd never use any antbiotics without a valid scip unless in dire emergencies. If they're really needed it's just to easy to get a real Rx. Besides, with an Rx, their paid for by insurance.
Mmm so you pay taxes to cover education for your children ...which can then be denied based on parenting decisions that have nothing to do with education. Glad its not like that here.
Me? I chose vaccination - but I think freedom of choice is very important - particularly in what we put in our bodies and our childrens bodies. Lets not delude ourselves, vaccination is not safe. Whooping cough vaccine carries potential side effects of brain damage or death.
Now the risk of lethal side effects, is less likely than the risks of the disease itself in a broad sample base, however the vaccine is potentially lethal. To me that requires consideration and consent and not "greater good" compulsion. But then, thats just me.
Me? I chose vaccination - but I think freedom of choice is very important - particularly in what we put in our bodies and our childrens bodies. Lets not delude ourselves, vaccination is not safe. Whooping cough vaccine carries potential side effects of brain damage or death.
Now the risk of lethal side effects, is less likely than the risks of the disease itself in a broad sample base, however the vaccine is potentially lethal. To me that requires consideration and consent and not "greater good" compulsion. But then, thats just me.
When the disease has more or less been tamed and eradicated, they refuse to 'risk' their precious jewel
Ahh but thats unsound science surely. There is a massive worldwide pool of these diseases, so mutation will occur whether or not we immunise our children. Indeed you brought up TB earlier - its is acknowledged fact that drug resistant TB strains are migrating to Western Europe from Eastern Europe...so whether we immunise our children or not, the disease has mutated and is being brought here by tourists and immigration.
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
vaccination or the lack of it does not cause mutations. Viruses and bacteria adapt just like any other kingdom. Out of thousands of mutations one out suceeds another and the new varation lives on.
I am glad we dont have manditory vaccination programs, and there are still sections of the media where scientific information can be assessed by any one literate understand autism diagnosis stats and the chemical structure of thermisol. I dont read the daily mail.
I am glad we dont have manditory vaccination programs, and there are still sections of the media where scientific information can be assessed by any one literate understand autism diagnosis stats and the chemical structure of thermisol. I dont read the daily mail.
Autism isn't caused by a disease. It's genetic.
Basic reading but here it is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_autism
Mary
Basic reading but here it is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_autism
Mary
There were some attempts to link it to some vaccinations. And to aluminum IIRC. Most were disproved.
........and we already can't keep up.
The only reason there's hysteria about vaccines is simply that the lifestyle and health of those in the West is so good. The reality is that when disease kills more than the vaccine (perhaps) damages, by a thousand fold, then everyone wants their child vaccinated. When the disease has more or less been tamed and eradicated, they refuse to 'risk' their precious jewel
Smallpox is gone, thankfully.
Polio should be gone
There's an inferral here as to what tamed the disease. There are conflicting theories as to what has tamed various diseases but I have yet to see anyone producing numbers directly linked to a cause to prove their case.
The only thing I have seen anyone backing their case up with is conviction. As conviction generally filters people's logic, by allowing conjecture to infiltrate, someone else's conviction is a very poor thing to base a health decision on.
Eh ?
Smallpox is gone. Everybody who was vulnerable in any area where it was known to exist was vaccinated. No reservoir of disease = no disease.
That's not just conviction; that's reality.
There is no reason that polio could not similarly be eradicated, but it's already on it's way back because the reservoir of the disease wasn't emptied, and now, with the attacks on health workers in 3rd world countries by religious extremists, it'll get a foothold and a boost again.
Similarly TB
and it's here, right now.....away and ask Rik-uk3 about that.
M
Smallpox is gone. Everybody who was vulnerable in any area where it was known to exist was vaccinated. No reservoir of disease = no disease.
That's not just conviction; that's reality.
There is no reason that polio could not similarly be eradicated, but it's already on it's way back because the reservoir of the disease wasn't emptied, and now, with the attacks on health workers in 3rd world countries by religious extremists, it'll get a foothold and a boost again.
Similarly TB
and it's here, right now.....away and ask Rik-uk3 about that.M
I miss having children around, those of you who still have them at home, I hope you enjoy them
Mary
The trick is to space them out
Mine are 20, 12 and 4. If I continue to follow the pattern have another 4 years to wait until the next one.
I have to say that I suspect that the memory of having small children and sleepless nights tend to be better than the reality.
