Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[British Red]

...you could, but if you do, best not to be carrying a knife illegally eh? Unless you want to carry your noble stand through to an appearance in court.

Martyn, I would never carry a knife illegally (or an axe, or a chainsaw or any of my firearms), however when I do carry any of those thing with all the appropriate purpose and licences, I expect that any searches required will be based upon an objective reason for search and not upon the length of my hair or my skin colour. I am happy to comply with the law and expect others to do the same - especially those employed to enforce it - a view held by a number of my friends )who happen to be police offcers )!

Red

 

[laurens ch]

I tend to go off the beaten track and only ever recall having been seen once using a knife by some hunters. When its wet I tend not go so far but hardly ever see anyone(don't think most people go out when its raining).The main problem I would be likely to face is being stopped on the way to my designation when walking along the streets or returning which is usually in the dark I can only hope that the other kit water bottle torch first aid kit often a bushcraft book odd bits of wood etc etc would convince the policemen that I was legitimate. I haven’t really thought of a reason other than they were for bushcraft.,given the chance I would try and explain what I had used them for. I wouldn’t want a detailed plan of what I would say if I were stopped it might make the reasons sound to staged and rehearsed.

 

[Martyn]

Martyn, I would never carry a knife illegally (or an axe, or a chainsaw or any of my firearms),

You're quoting me out of context Red, I think you are fully aware that the "you" we were both talking about, was in the 3rd person?

I refuse to say "one could do this" or "one could do that", it's way too affected for a North Staffs lad - so you'll just have to accept "you" as the metaphor.

however when I do carry any of those thing with all the appropriate purpose and licences, I expect that any searches required will be based upon an objective reason for search and not upon the length of my hair or my skin colour. I am happy to comply with the law and expect others to do the same - especially those employed to enforce it - a view held by a number of my friends )who happen to be police offcers )!

Red

Ahhh, now you're personalising it.

Good old fashioned bigotry isnt called bigotry these days, it's gone all legitimate and it's called demographics and profiling. It's far more professional.

You can dress how you like, it's still a free country, but you will reduce your chances of being stopped under suspicion of something, by dressing out of a particular demographic. If you dont want your colar felt, dont dress like a hoodie or a rap gangsta. Yes of course you (3rd person) should be able to dress like a rap-gangsta and walk the streets at 2am, without getting lifted for everything in the area just because of the way you (3rd person) look, I'm sure all the hoodies out at 2am are perfectly charming, but that's not how it works. You (3rd person) will generate more attention by dressing in a particular manner. I dont think race has as much to do with it as it used to, or hair length for that matter, but clothes certainly do. You (Red) may find the concept offensive, but that doesnt dilute the truth of it.

 

[Nemisis]

I know what you mean there Martyn years ago when I was younger I had real long hair.One night I was walking home and I was stopped and searched infront of Burslem Fire Station by a passing panda car. The excuse they gave was that "they thought I was trying to hide my face" I was infact sneezing at the time lol.
Dave.

 

[Jackdaw]

Lets not forget, if you are carrying your knife, best to do it in your bergan and not hanging around your kneck or on your belt. Simply put, no one will be ringing the police to say some knife weilding maniac is loose on their street if they can't see it.

However, having it round your kneck, tucked under your jacket would make me think you are trying to concele it. A lot of scrotes carry knives this way and I was taught to look for objects hanging around their necks.

I think Martyn has put it pretty simply and very clearly. Don't carry one if you don't need to. And for a bimble in the hills, do you really need your Ray Mears, Alan Wood Gucci knife?

Swiss Army Knifes are a safer bet.

 

[Kane]

It might be worth pointing out, that people have been sucessfully prosecuted under the Offensive Weapons Legislation, for using items such as Carrots, Turnips and even a polystyrene cup of hot coffee.

It is all about context and intent.

If you are behaving responsibly and conforming with Section 139 of the CJA, then you have all the Good Reason you require to carry your bushcraft knives/axe- even on Public Transport.

but common sense should tell you to keep them in your ruck until you're out in the woods

 

[match]

I've only been stopped once by police, and that was coming through Waverley station in Edinburgh after a weekend where I'd been doing volunteer work clearing rhododendrons etc - my rucksack was kinda full so I'd strapped my axe to the outside, wrapped in a clear plastic bag (I'd lost my black binbag which I'd coveredit with before ) The policeman stopped me to ask why I had the axe, so I explained, and he seemed happy enough, but asked me if I could put it inside my bag. I opened the bag to show him the machete, several knifes, 2 more smaller axes and a small saw, and explained the axe was probably the least threatening thing that fitted on the outside.
Again, he seemed happy with this.

So the solution to the quesiton of excuses is 'have a good bushcrafty excuse, and carry as much hardware as you can '

 

[JonnyP]

Jon, have a look at the Law Forum over on British Blades, that should answer all of your questions.

Cheers Bogflopper, I will.
Martyn..........Thanks for your explanations and for taking the time to type them out, what must, for you be the 100th time. Its a popular subject though.
Just one last question.........If it is legal to carry a sub 3" non locking blade, then why are you likely to be arrested at the pub or a footie match. Do you still need a good reason for carrying any small blade ?.................Jon

 

[British Red]

You can dress how you like, it's still a free country, but you will reduce your chances of being stopped under suspicion of something, by dressing out of a particular demographic. If you dont want your colar felt, dont dress like a hoodie or a rap gangsta. Yes of course you (3rd person) should be able to dress like a rap-gangsta and walk the streets at 2am, without getting lifted for everything in the area just because of the way you (3rd person) look, I'm sure all the hoodies out at 2am are perfectly charming, but that's not how it works. You (3rd person) will generate more attention by dressing in a particular manner. I dont think race has as much to do with it as it used to, or hair length for that matter, but clothes certainly do. You (Red) may find the concept offensive, but that doesnt dilute the truth of it.

I do find the concept offensive Martyn.

However I think you misunderstood my point. Given that I adhere to both the letter and the spirit of the law, I have nothing to hide if searched. However, that does not give anyone the right to conduct an un-neccesary search. Were that to happen to me, I would involve the independant police complaints authority and I would advise anyone who was unreasonably inconvenienced (which is where we started on this) to do the same.

Don't misunderstand me, I absolutely endorse and uphold everything you have said about following and upholding the law. My only divergence is to advise someone who is the victim of prejudice not to suffer in silence or try to change their appearance but to use the statutory bodies that exist to ensure that everyone follows the law. The fact that I am now a senior manager of a FTSE 100 company should not mean that I am treated any differently than I was as a long haired and bearded younger man. I was a law abiding citizen then as I am now.

As I said way back "whether tis nobler in the heart and mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take up arms, and by opposing, end them"...I still have a reformist zeal and, as another apposite quote states "all that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing". Judging people by their appearance is wrong, pure and simple.

Good debate though

Red

 

[sam_acw]

I've been thinking a bit more about this a bit more and remembered actually being encouraged to buy a knife for work when I worked in a packing company a couple of years ago.
I probably could use the same thing in my current job as I still have to open a lot of boxes. The knives in question where like mini-stanley knives about an inch long with a button on the blade to slide it out. i'll have a look to see if i can find a picture of one.
here is is box opener

 

[Wayland]

My only divergence is to advise someone who is the victim of prejudice not to suffer in silence or try to change their appearance but to use the statutory bodies that exist to ensure that everyone follows the law.

Principle is all well and good if you can afford it. The last thing I need is to provoke the police as there are many occasions when it could well be argued that I do not have "lawful authority" to enter a school with my equipment, simply because my paperwork has not been signed by a person in the school with such authority.

This is quite common as the school do not for one moment realise I face prosecution so the paperwork gets signed by any Tom, Dick or Harriet. I do not then know if it's the right person until I get to the school offices by which time I'm already breaking the law.

It's a catch 22 but it's probably enough to land me in court some day.



BTW if you really want to see predjudice in action you should try getting through customs with long hair, that's great fun....

 

[bambodoggy]

seriously who has been stopped and searched by the police whilst walking about mindng their own business?

I have....just coz it hasn't happened to you don't presume it hasn't happened to lots of others out there too.

 

[British Red]

Principle is all well and good if you can afford it. The last thing I need is to provoke the police as there are many occasions when it could well be argued that I do not have "lawful authority" to enter a school with my equipment, simply because my paperwork has not been signed by a person in the school with such authority.

This is quite common as the school do not for one moment realise I face prosecution so the paperwork gets signed by any Tom, Dick or Harriet. I do not then know if it's the right person until I get to the school offices by which time I'm already breaking the law.

It's a catch 22 but it's probably enough to land me in court some day.



BTW if you really want to see predjudice in action you should try getting through customs with long hair, that's great fun....

Wayland,

I agree with you about not provoking the police - they have a job to do and its a very important one. I also think that their "intent" is important too. If someone reported seeing you entering a school carrying weapons, then fine, they should investigate (no-one want another Dunblane). Your hair length should however be irrelevant!

Some examples of good and bad practice....

I was having a regular FAC inspection by the firearms officer once (post handgun ban) and the chap spotted a broomhandled Mauser on my wall (I collect historic weapons), and asked about it. I explained that this particular weapon was a deactivation and offered to show him the certificate. He said "don't bother" and showed me the relevant proof mark and explained how to tell a legal de-act by the marks. He also said "you should get a section 7 permit" and proceeded to disuss how to do it. Good bloke - alert, interested and friendly. Checked out something that might have been suspect without offense.

Another occasion I was out on a night walk watching bats and owls. Was crossing a road when a police car came down. My attention was summoned by the expression "oi you, come 'ere". In best BBC accent I enquired "good evening officer - may I be of assistance?" ..."oh sorry sir...thought you might be a lout"..."Indeed officer...would you be kind enough to supply your badge number?". Bad practice in that it was both offensive and unneccesary - alienating the public doesn't help the police get their job done.

I think 99% of the police do a fantastic job in tough conditions for poor pay. The occasional tiny minority (like the one above) are usually brought into line by their Inspector - if the Inspector finds out about it or otherwise there is an official channel to resolve the issue.

I do understand that in your job, you need the police on side - I'm sure many of them would be fascinated by what you do - the same as the kids. Provided you have an arrangement in writing from the school, I can't see anyone prosecuting you (at least I surely hope not)

Red

 

[Goose]

I think the main problem with the law is that we could be arrested for just doing our hobby, sitting in a wood whittling a stick.
I know it is unlikely, but what if a dog walker see's a knife calls the police and there is the serious over reaction with half the local force turning up? Will they just leave you alone and move on?
Or will they have to be seen to be doing something about the "wierdo in the woods waving a knife around"? This scenario is the most worrying one, and as most of us don't fit the demographic of sheeple, we will be wierdo in the woods to most.
I think the problem is if anybody feels threatened, the police are supposed to act on it. The scale of the reaction, if any, seems completely random depending on timing mainly.
WE know the rules, and know we have a good reason, but how do we explain to someone who just doesn't get bushcraft what we are doing and why we need the kit we have? There have been lots of threads on here about "what is bushcraft?", if we can't agree what it is what chance does the bobby who has just pushed through half a mile of nettles to get to you have?

I do have great respect for the police generally, the bobbies are doing a really hard job with little thanks. I just think that the laws don't always help them in doing their job.

 

[running bare]

exactly right goose thats what i mean the law is irrelevant of where you are.its the law of the land. north,south,east & west.town,city or in the middle of a wood 300 miles from anyone,they say you can carry a knife with just cause section 139, but they can arrest you under section 1, no wonder its confusing everyone,as you say a lone rambler comes across you ,calls 999 and possibly get a visit from an armed response unit, are they going to say sorry to you or justify the expense by making an arrest?im not against the machine as such but the laws are 2 faced. now i dont believe in licencing for the sake of licencing but maybe if there was a licencing sceme for knives for ligitimate reason and anyone with a knife without a licence can then be proscecuted i would be ok with that as long as it does not become a money making scheme.

 

[Martyn]

Just one last question.........If it is legal to carry a sub 3" non locking blade, then why are you likely to be arrested at the pub or a footie match. Do you still need a good reason for carrying any small blade ?.................Jon

No, Jon you dont need a good reason to carry a sub 3" none locking knife. It is legal to carry just because you feel like it.

But section 139 isnt the only law that applies to knives.

The most likely law that will also apply is section 1 of the 1953 prevention of crime act.

1:-

(1) Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on him, has with him in any public place any offensive weapon shall be guilty of an offence . . .

(4) In this section ..."offensive weapon" means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or by some other person.

This means anything that could be used as a weapon, is potentially arrestable. If you carry a baseball bat into an argument, and a police officer saw you, you may get arrested for carrying an offensive weapon - but it's just a baseball bat right?

Well, yes it is, but it's the context which turns it into an offensive weapon or potential offensive weapon.

If you are playing baseball, it's just a bat. If you are in a gang fight, it's an offensive weapon. If you strike someone with it, it's an offensive weapon.

The act apllies to knives.

If you take an otherwise legal knife into a fight, it becomes an offensive weapon. If you assault someone with a sak, it becomes an offensive weapon. If you turn up to a dodgy situation carrying one in your pocket and get searched, the police officer will think your intention it to use as an offensive weapon (he doesnt need to prove it to arrest you for it).

In order to be arrested for posession of an offensive weapon, the officer either needs to see you brandishing the weapon or have good reason to think that you are carrying an item with intent to use an an offensive weapon. Knives at football matches and nightclubs pretty much immediately fall into this category. Why would you want a knife at a nightclub or football match if not to use as a weapon?

That is sufficiently good enough of a question, to get pretty much anyone doing it arrested and take to the nick to offer an explanation.

So yes, a knife with a blade under 3" and doesnt lock, you can carry with you just because you feel like it. But it doesnt absolve you from responsibility. You still need to be aware of the context in which you are carrying a knife, because you can still be arrested for posession of an offensive weapon if the circumstances throw that kind of light on it (nightclubs, footie matches, pubs etc).

You'll get very little sympathy from the police for carrying a knife into volatile crowded situations, especially where alcohol may be involved. You could get arrested for carrying almost anything with any kind of blade.

 

[Martyn]

exactly right goose thats what i mean the law is irrelevant of where you are.its the law of the land. north,south,east & west.town,city or in the middle of a wood 300 miles from anyone,they say you can carry a knife with just cause section 139, but they can arrest you under section 1, no wonder its confusing everyone...

The 1953 prevention of crime act has been in force for 53 years. That sounds obvious, but it's worth pointing out. These are the exact same laws we have all been living under all our lives. The newest of which, the 1988 criminal justice act was 18 years ago.

 

[Martyn]

I think the main problem with the law is that we could be arrested for just doing our hobby, sitting in a wood whittling a stick.

It's possible, but you would need to give the police officer another reason. The context of sitting in a wood whittling a stick is totally appropriate and perfectly resonable. It would be virtually impossible for any police officer to find a justification to arrest you for that alone. You would bneed to do something else, brandish it in a threatening manner or something.

Look at match's example above...

I've only been stopped once by police, and that was coming through Waverley station in Edinburgh after a weekend where I'd been doing volunteer work clearing rhododendrons etc - my rucksack was kinda full so I'd strapped my axe to the outside, wrapped in a clear plastic bag (I'd lost my black binbag which I'd coveredit with before ) The policeman stopped me to ask why I had the axe, so I explained, and he seemed happy enough, but asked me if I could put it inside my bag. I opened the bag to show him the machete, several knifes, 2 more smaller axes and a small saw, and explained the axe was probably the least threatening thing that fitted on the outside.
Again, he seemed happy with this.

He was walking through a crowded train station with a rucksack full of weapons and the cop let him go on his way because his excuse was perfectly reasonable ...and so he should.

You know cops arent flying around the woods in helicopters with nightvision looking for bushcrafter to pounce on. If you use a knife sensibly and are cautious about where and when you take it out, making sure the context is always appropriate and safe, you will almost certainly never even get questioned about it. Know the law, but dont sweat it, enjoy your hobby.

 

[Nemisis]

I've a question Martyn I always have one of those steel credit card survival tools in my pocket are they classed as a knife?
Dave.

 

[Wayland]

Just in case no-one else says it Martyn. Thanks for your work and level headed replies to this thread.

I guess you must get fed up of answering these same questions on BB but there is value in setting the record straight over here too.