Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[Martyn]

..........to cut things?

That would get you arrested, your knife confiscated and you an appointment with a magistrate ...oh and up to 2 years holiday, paid for by the Queen. How kind.

 

[monkey_pork]

I make my living demonstrating and talking about the lives of our ancestors to schools and in museums all over Britain and on the continent too.

This may all sound a little paranoid but that reflects my growing concern about my legal position.

I'm afraid seeing the growing media coverage of "knife related incidents" and the political reactions to it makes me very nervous indeed.

Which is entirely fair enough in the circumstances I'd say, but I'm sure there is stuff you can do to minimise the risk tho'

Is the sharp gear secure within the vehicle ? If so you can at least begin to show due care etc, as it's not being waved about, or on show. The vehicle is always secure if you are not with it too I'd assume.

Do you carry other non-weapon materials to 'back-up' your story ?
I bet you do ...

Could you carry a print of your website, plus some thank you letters from schools or similar stuff (any newspaper cuttings) along with your driving documents, which will help reinforce your legitimate purpose.

I'm no lawyer, but one could imagine it would be rather punative if, on the way home from a demonstration you nipped into the supermarket for something, and your given defense fell foul of not actually being on your way to, or from a demonstration - after all, where does the line between detour and 'other purpose' come into play anyway ?

I can understand your point, as I often have farming tools, such as billhooks and the like in the car if I'm on the way to and from work - but that said last night I went for fuel with my stuff in the car, but I have to say that I didn't actually think about it, as I had other related stuff to explain it. I had all my other tools, my wellies & my overalls ... Now, I guess I could have put all that stuff together to lend weight to why I had some big sharp tools in the in the car, but then I think the emphasis on proof shifts off me a bit I think.

Context is key I guess, if I was out in town on an evening out and tried to carry this stuff, I'd expect trouble, but coming home from work ... much less so.

Good luck tho.

[Edit for spelling - grr !]

 

[Martyn]

I can understand your point, as I often have farming tools, such as billhooks and the like in the car if I'm on the way to and from work - but that said last night I went for fuel with my stuff in the car, but I have to say that I didn't actually think about it, as I had other related stuff to explain it. I had all my other tools, my wellies & my overalls ... Now, I guess I could have put all that stuff together to lend weight to why I had some big sharp tools in the in the car, but then I think the emphasis on proof shifts off me a bit I think.

You see a detour to refuel or pick up a pint of milk sounds reasonable to me, it probably would do to a police officer and it probably would do to a magistrate. Although you can never be certain, I would say the above is quite legal.

What is worrying Wayland (I know cos we've discussed this on BB), is those times when he's got home, has about 2 and a half tons of swords and armour in his van and is too tierd to empty it. Then goes out for milk. That's when it becomes illegal. He's factually not taking the kit to and from work, it's not a detour so he no longer has a reasonable excuse. It would require some clever talking (and some fibbing) to get off with it.

No matter how you try to jiggle the facts, leaving stuff in his van is illegal to the letter of the law if he uses the van for anything not work related.

 

[running bare]

can you clarify the law as regards carrying a knife as part of national dress or religious reasons and if this is just cause can you tell me which religion has just cause and for what reason a religion requires a knife? thanks tom

 

[jamesoconnor]

i am all for the stop and search campaigns by the police, as hopefully this will deter people carrying knives for their main reason which is to harm someone else. we as hobbyists practising bushcraft have a legitimate reason to carry a knife, especially if it is explained to them how much some of these knives cost and also handmade. i dont expect any of us to have a knife on us if it were not to and from where we carry out our hoddy etc.
i have been the victim of knife crime, and i would not wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. if the police were to stop just one person from doing what happened to me through stop and search etc then i would be happy. i was stabbed in the neck 5mm from my jugular vein the knife then dragged over my throat and up to my bottom lip missing my windpipe by a fraction. and all this from sitting in my car reading a book on bushcraft of all things whilst waiting to go and collect my wife from the doctors. he just opens the door and does what he's done to me . this knife weilding person has not been caught. we all have an excuse for carrying a knife as its legitimate, theses people are the one's that do not.

regards
james

 

[Martyn]

can you clarify the law as regards carrying a knife as part if national dress or religious reasons please martyn thanks tom

Certainly mate, you can.

A scott can carry a sgian dubh in public as part of full highland dress. A Sikh can carry a kirpan because his religion requires it of him (though there is some debate as to what exactly constitutes a kirpan).

This does not make them immune from arrest though.

There is more than one law which applies to the carry of knives. The one that a policeman would most likely arrest you under, is section 1 of the 1953 prevention of crime act. This makes it illegal for you to carry any item for use as a weapon, or for intent to use as a weapon.

So, for example a Scott in highland dress at a football match, would almost certainly get arrested for having a Sgian Dubh in his sock, because it's reasonable for a cop to think he was togged up and going tooled. He would get arrested for carrying an offensive weapon.

Same for the Sikh.

The same law actually applies to otherwise legal knives, like SAK's etc and football matches. So dont think just because your knife is under 3" and doesnt lock, you can take it to the pub or footie match.

 

[running bare]

cheers martyn. thanks for the reply. as i see it . it all comes down to the attitude of the officer other than a point of law. if 15000 scots fans turned up at say a world cup football match to support their own national team dressed in full scottish national dress and an officer that got up that day in a bad mood would arrest them all on the grounds of being tooled up. even though its not an offence to wear national dress and they havent actually committed an offence but because some officer "rightly assumes" they are all going to knife the opponents fans?how can he rightly assume when no criminal act has been committed.surely it should be unrightly assumes as there is no evidence of a crime or intent of a crime

 

[Martyn]

i am all for the stop and search campaigns by the police, as hopefully this will deter people carrying knives for their main reason which is to harm someone else. we as hobbyists practising bushcraft have a legitimate reason to carry a knife, especially if it is explained to them how much some of these knives cost and also handmade. i dont expect any of us to have a knife on us if it were not to and from where we carry out our hoddy etc.
i have been the victim of knife crime, and i would not wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. if the police were to stop just one person from doing what happened to me through stop and search etc then i would be happy. i was stabbed in the neck 5mm from my jugular vein the knife then dragged over my throat and up to my bottom lip missing my windpipe by a fraction. and all this from sitting in my car reading a book on bushcraft of all things whilst waiting to go and collect my wife from the doctors. he just opens the door and does what he's done to me . this knife weilding person has not been caught. we all have an excuse for carrying a knife as its legitimate, theses people are the one's that do not.

regards
james

Indeed James.

A nasty and unpleasant story. I hope they catch him and throw away the key. Sadly, I fear they wont.

That's the whole issues really. It's not that knives are bad, they are just tools. It's that people are bad. Any legislation should deal with why people would do something like this. It should address the problems within our society that allow this to happen in the first place and how to properly punish those who do it. There is no deterrent any more, prison, while not a hotel, isnt nearly as grim as it should be. Kids dont fear arrest or punishment, so they do what they want. There in no threat that hangs over people, that will keep the evil and chaotic element in line - untill such a time that they see why they should be responsible, contributors. None of this gets addressed, because it's too ingrained and too complex. Instead, we have a knife amnesty, which does nothing but let the governement off the hook.

 

[ilan]

I would also think you would have to prove a history for the religon/ national dress Thus if you were arrested you could not claim to be a jedi knight or whatever .Think in todays climate its just not worth the risk i will not carry any knife in a sheath on my belt , it stays hidden in my mess kit unless i wont if for a specific job . I do carry a sheeps foot bladed folding knife , with spike with a max blade length of 2 3/4 ins . Just as an aside a 24 year old died just 100 yards from were i work at 10 AM on a tuesday morning following a knife attack . The police will be looking to make a few examples .

 

[running bare]

I would also think you would have to prove a history for the religon/ national dress Thus if you were arrested you could not claim to be a jedi knight or whatever .Think in todays climate its just not worth the risk i will not carry any knife in a sheath on my belt , it stays hidden in my mess kit unless i wont if for a specific job . I do carry a sheeps foot bladed folding knife , with spike with a max blade length of 2 3/4 ins . Just as an aside a 24 year old died just 100 yards from were i work at 10 AM on a tuesday morning following a knife attack . The police will be looking to make a few examples .

not to mention the special wpc who was knifed to death outside her own home with a kitchen knife........that she took outside to use against a person outside of her property

 

[Martyn]

cheers martyn. thanks for the reply. as i see it . it all comes down to the attitude of the officer other than a point of law. if 15000 scots fans turned up at say a world cup football match to support their own national team dressed in full scottish national dress and an officer that got up that day in a bad mood would arrest them all on the grounds of being tooled up. even though its not an offence to wear national dress and they havent actually committed an offence but because some officer "rightly assumes" they are all going to knife the opponents fans?how can he rightly assume when no criminal act has been committed.surely it should be unrightly assumes as there is no evidence of a crime or intent of a crime

Sorry, I disagree. I think if someone takes a knife to a football match (even as part of a national costume), then they are probably taking it as a weapon. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that and I think an arrest for it is perfectly reasonable.

Think of it the other way, if the cops let 1000 scotts into a footie match with knives in their socks and 20 people got stabbed, you'd probably be wanting to know why the hell they let them into a potentially violent and volatie situation with deadly weapons in full view.

If the cops let 1000 scotts into a footie match with knives in their socks and no one got stabbed, it'd be a blimmin miracle - regardless of whether or not they were wearing skirts.

 

[stotRE]

I carry a scramseax every day for religious reasons,if i die from an accident i want to go to Valhalla and not Hel.If i wasn't carrying my scramseax i dont think that Bragi would allow me in.

I,ve been stopped several times by the police but when i explain myself they smile and send me on my way.

Some may see me as bringing unneccesary attention to Asatru but this is what i believe and why should i dilute my religious beliefs to suit a society that has allowed its young total freedom from all responsibility.

They reap what they sow and now their knees are jerking.What next?

A knife ban?

That would be about as effective as the handgun ban

I'll burn my soapbox now.

Hail Odin!

 

[running bare]

ahh , but on the assumption that people wearing national or religious dress are going to commit offences then why have the exemptions in law? obviously the LAW does not percieve them to be a threat? so why should a LAW ENFORCEMENT officer come to assume that he knows better than the law he is paid to uphold? if that is the case every officer on the beat is a high court judge?

 

[monkey_pork]

A Sikh can carry a kirpan because his religion requires it of him

Now, I grant you I may have imagined this, but ... I'm sure I read somewhere of a discussion being had within the Sikh community about having a kirpan tattoo in an iron bearing ink, as this form may no less represent the meaning of the kirpan, than does a carried version, but one that doesn't raise any legal question.

My apologies if I have simply got that wrong, or it misrepresents the kirpan in anyway, but it seems to have stuck in my mind, and seems kinda relevant.

 

[Martyn]

ahh , but on the assumption that people wearing national or religious dress are going to commit offences then why have the exemptions in law? obviously the LAW does not percieve them to be a threat? so why should a LAW ENFORCEMENT officer come to assume that he knows better than the law he is paid to uphold? if that is the case every officer on the beat is a high court judge?

Because it's about context.

There are threatening and volatile contexts and there are passive and peacful ones.

The law says you can carry a knife in public, so long as the context is passive, peaceful and reasonable.

The law says you cannot carry a knife in volatile and potentially violent situations.

That seems reasonable to me.

You are surely not saying you would support a legal system that would allow 1000 scotts into a celtic v rangers match, openly carrying daggers in thier socks? I'm sorry, but I think any sane person would agree there absolutely has to be a law to stop that.

The law is structured as it is, because it would be utterly impossible for the law to draft a list of precise circumstances where knives are OK and where they are not. Instead, it says "cops, feel free to use your noodle, allow it where it's reasonable and arrest em where it isnt". The courts will make the final judgement as to whether or not the cops judgement was on the money and either set em free or bang em up. I actually think it's a pretty good system. At least I cant think of a better one.

 

[Martyn]

Now, I grant you I may have imagined this, but ... I'm sure I read somewhere of a discussion being had within the Sikh community about having a kirpan tattoo in an iron bearing ink, as this form may no less represent the meaning of the kirpan, than does a carried version, but one that doesn't raise any legal question.

My apologies if I have simply got that wrong, or it misrepresents the kirpan in anyway, but it seems to have stuck in my mind, and seems kinda relevant.

As I said in the post you have quoted, there is some debate as to what actually constitues a kirpan. Some Sikhs have argued that carrying a tiny, completely blunt - soft iron kirpan is OK, I can see the tatoo argument is along those lines. Some Sikhs say it must be sharp and functional. Untill the theological debate is settled, the legal one will continue to run.

 

[Abbe Osram]

Following on from Stovies "So how does it affect you" thread, I thought I would ask, what reasons would you give to a policeman for carrying your knife ?
I nearly always have a knife with me, usually my leatherman wave, but if I was suddenly stopped in a street and a knife was found on me, I may not be able to come up with a convincing reason for carrying my knife and may have it taken off me. I am the last sort of person to use a knife on another person, but I find having a knife always useful. So do you have any good reasons I could use....................Jon

Think about it, here up in the north of Lappland where most guys have a knife dangling from their belt. They came up with the same law that you shall not have a knife in public places. When I go in the shopping center or gasolin station my knife is dangling from my belt and none said anything to me.

I dont care what the law is. But I would not have a knife on my belt in Stockholm or a big city either.

cheers
Abbe

 

[running bare]

section 1 of the offesive weapons act. This makes it illegal for you to carry any item for use as a weapon, or for intent to use as a weapon.

not trying to be obtuse or anything just pointing out the flaw of assumption here.how can a person prove that you INTEND to use any item as a weapon?im digressing from knives here. BUT how many people at a footie match carry keys,pens and newspapers/programs? how can any person say that they intend to use these items as weapons?seemingly everyday items, but remember the millwall brick made out of a newspaper? or the girl who killed her boyfriend i believe it was with her car keys?and no doubt the astute of you out there can see how a pen/pencil can be used as a weapon now just because you havet thought how to use these every day items as weapons doesnt mean that a police officer doesnt see them as such? now do you see where it comes down to the pc's attitude there is several items that you are all probably wearing except nudists that can be construde as " Any item for use or intent for use as a weapon" how can you prove you never intend to use said items as weapons? have the pc's and judges become mindreaders? scary thought but think about the uses for a while and surprise yourselves

 

[Martyn]

Think about it, here up in the north of Lappland where most guys have a knife dangling from their belt. They came up with the same law that you shall not have a knife in public places. When I go in the shopping center or gasolin station my knife is dangling from my belt and none said anything to me.

I dont care what the law is. But I would not have a knife on my belt in Stockholm or a big city either.

cheers
Abbe

Yeah, it's all about context Abbe. Actually, in the UK it would be legal to carry a knife up the hills, if they lived the kind of life they do in N Lappland, while at the same time illegal to carry in cities for no good reason. The UK law lets the cops choose what is reasonable and either let em go or arrest em accordingly. It's not a bad system.

I think the problem people have with it, is that it's all up to the individual cop as to what is reasonable and what isnt. If you get a cop who is having a bad hair day, you could fall foul of his bad mood. People see that as a bit too powerful. Though having said that, if the cop arrested someone unfairly, the courts would throw it out and the cop would get a good telling off.

 

[running bare]

where in uk law does it state it applies to towns and cities and not in the hills?