Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[pierre girard]

That is the biggest load of hogwash I've ever read.

Apart from this...



...which nearly had me falling of my chair with laughter.



Why would England want to export it to the rest of the world? We couldn't care less. We have lots and lots of nuclear missiles to defend our borders, other countries domestic arguments are meaningless to us. If people use the English model to prove a point in your country, then it's likely that it's Americans importing it, not the English exporting it. I work in an Intensive Care Unit that covers a large city, in the last 7 years I have seen 2 gunshot wounds. More people die from being struck by lightening in Britain, than they do from being shot. This isn't rhetoric, or hyperbole, just a realy good example of a country where the people dont shoot each other, whatever the reason for it.

I'm sorry if our restrictive gun laws and clear absence of gun crime creates a problem for the NRA in America, but there you have it.

Finally, this thread is about knife law, not gun law. Will people please stop dragging their gun rants into the equation at every blimmin opportunity.

If you have information that I lack - and a better refutation than "hogwash," I'd appreciate a PM. If you care to do so - please name your sources. I'd appreciate something better than media rhetoric.

Also - please hurry. I'm not sure what part of my post it is you consider a "rant." I have always attempted to be aware of English sensibilities and allow for different opinions, but this, apparently, is a subject which engenders a knee-jerk reaction. Like Abbe - I'm starting to feel quite unwelcome on this forum and unable to freely converse on a variety of subjects unless I tout the party line.

 

[useless]

I'm most fortunate to have been employed as a youth worker for the last 12 (or more, I think) years. I have worked with some right oiks in my time, most of whom have been interesting and entertaining characters. Some of them have carried knives and some of these have had conversations with me about the reasons they do it. The most recent has been with a right prat who has spent many hours happily threatening to "do me in" over the last year or so. We managed to have a very sensible conversation one evening (whilst his mate was trying to beat up his ex-girlfriend who was in one of my youth clubs, and threatening to "do me in" whilst he was at it). The point to this tale is coming, it just takes me a while to get there.

The reason he carries a locking knife, he says, is to help him break into buildings. Not stab people, but force badly designed locks and catches. He then went on to demonstrate how he could easily break into my building using his small locking knife. He was so quick I have since had the locks changed. I asked him why he didn't carry a penknife like mine. He said they had a tendancy to fold up on your hands (safety first!), and that the blades were too soft / brittle.

So I guess I'm suggesting that other people use these locking knives as tools as well as us lot. Maybe they could use something else if they couldn't get hold of these knives. But what this law does is offer an officer a good opportunity to take this lad (and others like him) off the streets for a night on suspicion of "going equipped to cheese off the local youth worker", or some similar offence

I like my knives, and feel I should be allowed to carry them on a regular basis. Some times I think they would come in handy. But I also like the fact that my reporting to the local beat officer what this guy told me (and I told him I would) offered them a good opportunity for stopping some ones house being done over one evening!

Gods forbid he should get access to agun (but let's not go there

 

[chewie]

Pierre,

this is not my argument to get in to, but I enjoy reading your posts, especially about the canoe trips, and would not choose for you to be offended.

If you want to see firearms statistics for the UK, they are here. Rather you than me!

I enjoy shooting myself, but the UK has totally different rules and outlook to North America. Guns are far from everyday items here.

Apparently, you guys drive on the wrong side of the road too.....

 

[Martyn]

If you have information that I lack - and a better refutation than "hogwash," I'd appreciate a PM. If you care to do so - please name your sources. I'd appreciate something better than media rhetoric.

PG, I apologise if I came over a little abrupt, but your figures are staggeringly inaccurate. So much so, they can only be described as propoganda.

In Britain, there were 46 homicides from firearms in 2005-2006. Not 46,000, or 4,600 or even 460 ...but 46!
I forget exactly how many people were struck by lightening, 60 something I think.

I wasnt making a wild boast, it's absolutely true. More people get struck by lightening each year in the UK, than get shot dead.

How many tens of thousands were there shot dead in America in the same period?
click for answer

Overall, there were 10,000 firearms related offences in the UK for 2005-2006, compared to 339,280 in the USA - 34 fold greater. UK population is around 58 million, US pop is around 5x that. 10,000 offences in total and 46 homicides for the whole country (including Northern Ireland). That's approximately 0.002% of the population involved in fireams offences. In britain, there is more chance of winning the lottery than getting shot dead.

It's hardly "25% of every kid can get a gun" kind of levels is it?
I would suggest twenty four and a half percent of the little darlings are liars.


Source: The Home Office Official crime statistics for the UK.

Click to download the .pdf

Your suggestions are not supported with figures. They are suppositions. The streets of British cities are far safer than those of the US, by several orders of magnitude. Read the government statistics above, compare them to those from your own government, do the math as they say and you'll see it's far from rhetoric.

Here, let me help...
According to figures released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics of the U.S. Justice Department in 2005, in the year 2004 the United States recorded 339,200 firearm-related crimes, including 11,300 murders, 162,900 robberies, and 165,000 assaults (Statistics Crimes Committed with Firearms, Issued by U.S. Bureau of Justice, in: http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/guns.htm).

Also - please hurry. I'm not sure what part of my post it is you consider a "rant." I have always attempted to be aware of English sensibilities and allow for different opinions, but this, apparently, is a subject which engenders a knee-jerk reaction. Like Abbe - I'm starting to feel quite unwelcome on this forum and unable to freely converse on a variety of subjects unless I tout the party line.

Forgive me for having an opinion. It's not a knee jerk reaction, your inferences of crime levels in Britain are wide of the mark by a country mile. There were 765 homicides in 2005/06, a decrease of 12 per cent from the previous year. The homicide figure of 765 includes 52 homicide victims of the 7 July London bombings. As I said, I work in a trauma unit that covers a large working class city and have personally only seen 2 GSW in the last 7 years. We do staff exhanges with a trauma unit in Baltimore. They see twice that many each day.

The U.S. Justice Department reported on Sept. 25, 2005 that there were 5,182,670 violent crimes in the United States in 2004. There were 21.4 victims for every 1,000 people aged 12 and older, which amounts to about one violent crime victim for every 47 U.S. citizens

There are approximately 190 million privately owned guns in the USA.

I realise if you go to the US, you're not gonna get shot as soon as you get off the plane.



...I think the trick is to stay low and make for the nearest armoured car.

 

[pierre girard]

PG, I apologise if I came over a little abrupt, but your figures are staggeringly inaccurate. So much so, they can only be described as propoganda.

:

You extend an apology - then you insult me.

Very interesting way of doing things, I must say.

 

[BorderReiver]

You extend an apology - then you insult me.

Very interesting way of doing things, I must say.

I don't see it as an insult Pierre,these were not your figures,you were quoting from a source.

That source could well be using "enhanced" figures to make a point.

 

[Mr_Yarrow]

I enjoy shooting myself

Doesnt that get a bit painfull after a while?

 

[Toddy]

I find the cultural complexities of finding accord and understanding, despite a shared language, to be fascinating.

I doubt Martyn's intention was to insult, thought I have to admit that the out right lies that are being spread as truth in America on the realities of British gun control are insulting to *us*.

We teach our children to look for the agenda behind the propaganda; it is a part of their school education to be analytically critical of hype......don't Americans do this too?
If advice or information comes from a source that has defined bias then the onus is on one to investigate before one takes the rhetoric as gospel.

The figures Martyn gives are in agreement with the details that I know of friends who work A & E in the largest Scottish city (Glasgow) too. Knives are a major issue, generally guns are not. I work in one of the most troublesome social nightmare areas and I have yet to see a gun there.
The only man I know of accused of a firearms crime is an armed bank robbed in his 60's, it was an unloaded shotgun, 30 years ago. He spent nearly 20 years in jail for a crime without a shot fired.......and still believes that it was a Hell mend him/served him right decision.

A toddler was killed recently in Glasgow by a drugged out fool with an airgun. His excuse was that he was aiming at the fire brigade engine the little boy was watching. The public are now baying for the removal of airguns too, and where it was once common for little boys to have airguns, they are now considered socially odious.
Respsonsible parents do teach their children to use airguns properly and in country areas where hunting and fishing are more common pastimes, there is no opprobium to the practice. In inner city areas there is simply no reason for the guns for the vast majority of people. I suspect that in American the baying would be against the restrictions being imposed, while in the UK it is seen as largely well past time, and simply a way of restricting a potential problem.

Of course not everyone will agree with a law that inhibits them from doing *exactly* as they please, we are an open society and debate is normal, but in a genuine democracy the majority vote wins.

Interesting as this foray into comparative social mores has been, can we please return this thread to it's expressed intent.
Reasons for carrying a knife in the UK.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Toddy]

Doesnt that get a bit painfull after a while?

Ouch :11doh:

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[jamesraykenney]

A very consice summary of a long and involved thread, thanks.

For my part I'm trying to find a way to come up with a solution for converting my small non locking folding multitool or SAK blade into fixed blade ( having been the victim of serval self imposed cuts by them folding under pressure ) that allows me to carry it without the onus being on me to prove that I have no illegal intent.

Most systems I've contemplated are similar to the Opinel system, of a device that covers the blade, hinge and handle, though totally removeble so the locking mechanism can be kept seperate form the multitool itself. This has lead me to think that there is still some scope for the Law Lords to accept an appeal about blades that are capable of locking.

There seems to me still some marging within the current situation for appeals on the differention between ( the blades of ) tools that are lockable when open (and those that automatically lock when open. Those that automatically lock when opened are, for virtually all purposes in use, similar to fixed blades and as such should probably be covered by the same legistration ( much as I don't like the inconvience of possibly being arrested and then having the burdon to prove my innocent use ) So therefore if one should be prepared to have to show the same reasonable ground for carrying/use, in simplistic terms that it folds is not a get out clause and this does seem reasonable in many ways but certainly so if the blade is open and hence locked. Personally I'd think a folding blade that doesn't lock but is open is probably more proof of intent to use than a locking one that is closed, but seeing as we're all sensible people here I think we all see the benifits of folding either when not ready for immediate use.

However with a knife that has to be actively locked into it's fixed configuration there can be 2 situations
Those that have an captured ( sorry I'm locking for words that won't confuse the issue ) device for locking, which I believe Opinels fall into, or those which can be made to lock with an add on device.( I don't know of any currently manufactured but would like to be corrected )

Such a device would therefore mean the bushcrafters can lock their blades into a fixed configuration while they were using them in a buschraft context ( bypassing arguments about intended use as they are being used for that at the time ) and remove the locking mechanism for general carrying purposes, making the onus on intended use rather than justifying carrying.

Actually if someone comes up with a safe workable device that did that it would make it easier for bushcrafter, police and legistrators. ( and if they made huge ammounts of money from it would they mind giving me some

I wonder how a barrel knife would fit that? You have to take it apart and put it back together to lock it...
Just an added thought...
Does a knife that locks CLOSED violate the rules???

 

[jamesraykenney]

How does the Kershaw ET fit into the locking blade law? There is no locking mechanism except for your hand...(except for one to keep you from OPENING it.)

 

[chewie]

s139 CJA is quite clever, in as much as it prohibits all blades or pointed objects, then adds that it does not apply to a folding pocket knife with a blade under 3"/76mm.

Caselaw has already decided that an otherwise ordinary pocket knife that locks is not a folding pocket knife for the purpose of this exemption.

A barrel knife would definitely require good reason.

I can't imagine anyone walking away from a British copper still in possession of a Kershaw ET if it works like it looks. It might not fit the US definition of a switchblade, but it is highly unlikely to be a 'folding pocket knife' under UK rules. I would not touch this item with a 70-foot manual narrowboat motivator.

It is a thing of great hideousness anyway ... who would want one?

Just my personal opinion.

 

[Moonraker]

You extend an apology - then you insult me.

Very interesting way of doing things, I must say.

I see nothing insulting about Martyn's long, detailed and thoughtful response. If only your justifications included such detailed facts and provided specific sources. But, as has been mentioned already, the firearms debate has very little to do with the purpose of this thread, which has been kept pretty much on track and responded to some fairly weighty opinion.

Why don't you open another thread on the subject where the subject can be discussed more appropriately?

 

[chewie]

Doesnt that get a bit painfull after a while?

 

[Martyn]

How does the Kershaw ET fit into the locking blade law? There is no locking mechanism except for your hand...(except for one to keep you from OPENING it.)

Looks to me like it locks...

If you attempt to rotate the blade back into the handle, the frame blocking the pin would stop it from closing. It's a lock knife. From what I can tell, you have to move the rear of the frame backwards, which "cams" the bottom, allowing the blade to be closed.

 

[chewie]

Maybe it is just me, but that makes me think of two things.

Firstly, . in fact.

Secondly,

The second image is definitely worth avoiding for a lot of reasons.

There is a video of it here. Horrid.

this is on the same site:

Neither are s139 compliant, but which one is most likely not to attract attention / discretion?

And Martyn is right. If the blade can't be folded back without some other action, it's a lock knife.

 

[Martyn]

There is a video of it here.

Man I love it when I'm sooooo right.

Seriously, thanks for the link Chewie. It does indeed show the knife to be operated by a cam. The knife cant be closed simply by the folding process (as UK law requires) unless you operate the cam to release the blade. This means it's a lock knife - at least as far as UK courts are concerned.

It's also an assisted opener. They are designed to exploit a "definition loophole" in the law. While not an automatic in the conventional sense, these are probably only going to be legal to own in the UK untill a test case. When that happens, I'm pretty sure that the trial judge will rule that assisted openers are 'henceforth to be considered automatics'. I think it could probably also be called a gravity knife - also a banned item in the UK.

Anyone ever handled a Buck Rush assisted opener?

Looks like an automatic, feels like an automatic....

click to play the video.


What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

It's a flick knife isnt it?

I very, very much doubt anyone could convince a judge that an assisted opener isnt a flick knife. I think people are simply getting away with importing them, because they havent really surfaced above the radar yet. As soon as they do, they'll get shot down for sure. I'm "pro-knife" and I cant see how these things are getting through.

 

[Toddy]

Looks to me like it locks...

.

Y'know I really appreciate good engineering, have a fascination with things that *move*, but that is a really ugly knife, and it must be a nightmare to clean. What on Earth was it designed for? Darth Vadar??

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[chewie]

Y'know I really appreciate good engineering, have a fascination with things that *move*, but that is a really ugly knife, and it must be a nightmare to clean. What on Earth was it designed for? Darth Vadar??

Cheers,
Toddy

Yup, it's clever engineering.

I can imagine everyone in the charge room familiarising themselves with it, while the owner was waiting for the duty solicitor.

I still have to say though. Modern steels, yes, but give me a non-aggressive blade shape, and wood/stag/bone/ivory handle any day.

 

[chewie]

The knife cant be closed simply by the folding process (as UK law requires) unless you operate the cam to release the blade. This means it's a lock knife - at least as far as UK courts are concerned.

It's also an assisted opener. They are designed to exploit a "definition loophole" in the law. While not an automatic in the conventional sense, these are probably only going to be legal to own in the UK untill a test case. When that happens, I'm pretty sure that the trial judge will rule that assisted openers are 'henceforth to be considered automatics'. ....

I very, very much doubt anyone could convince a judge that an assisted opener isnt a flick knife. I think people are simply getting away with importing them, because they havent really surfaced above the radar yet. As soon as they do, they'll get shot down for sure. I'm "pro-knife" and I cant see how these things are getting through.

My thoughts exactly. The spirit of the law is to prohibit someone producing a blade at the touch of a button. 'Assisted Openers' might fall outside the US definition of a switchblade, but I can't imagine them being acceptable in the UK.

And if I'm being completely honest, I wouldn't want them to be.