Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[Pappa]

Sorry everyone, I think I've just got seriously mixed up. It was another, completely unconnected law I was thinking about. The Drugs Act 2005 made being in posession of drugs on school premises (and other areas used by children) an agrivating factor. Sorry.

Also, from the Criminal Justice Act 1988:

Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

I see that does actually include pencils then. You all better watch out that you have a genuine reason for carrying a pencil in your pocket, as we all know "just in case I needed it" isn't a valid defence in law.

Pappa

 

[Mantic]

Lol

.......

 

[Martyn]

Also, from the Criminal Justice Act 1988:

I see that does actually include pencils then. You all better watch out that you have a genuine reason for carrying a pencil in your pocket, as we all know "just in case I needed it" isn't a valid defence in law.

Pappa

Yes it does. I think what we all have to remeber, is that these laws are created and designed to give the police the tools they need, to bring a prosecution against a criminal. If a criminal stabbed you in the eye with a pencil, you may be quite happy to see him charged with as many offences as you can stack up.

Under certain contexts a pencil or biro is a quite effective weapon (anyone ever seen "The Bourne Identity?).

Slavegirl, remeber also, that if you have made it thus far in your life without getting searched or even raising an eyelid, there is every reason to think you will go the next xx years without bering searched.

Same applies to everyone else. If you have made it to 40 without being searched, you''l probably make it to 80 without being searched. Be aware of the law, absolutely, but dont get bogged down by it - it wasnt really meant for you.

 

[Martyn]

If you check back a page on this thread, you'll see that Martyn has addressed this question. It's only my query re: penknives in schools, airports, etc which he refuses to answer.

I think he's avoiding the point.

Haha (sorry, bad pun).

....

groan.

Mantic, I thought I have answered it on the previous page and in response to wayland.

Schhols and airports have thier own specific legislation..


For Schools...
The Offensive Weapons Act 1996 creates the specific offence of “having article with blade or point (or offensive weapon) on school premises etc.”

4. - (1) After section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offence of having article with blade or point in public place) there is inserted-

"Offence of having article with blade or point (or offensive weapon) on school premises. 139A. - (1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Any person who has an offensive weapon within the meaning of section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question.

(4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had the article or weapon in question with him-

(a) for use at work,
(b) for educational purposes,
(c) for religious reasons, or
(d) as part of any national costume.

Basically, what this does is make a school premises a paticular place distinct from any other "public place" where ANY and ALL articles with a blade or point are unlawfull, unless you have a good reason. So it removes the "less than 3" and non-locking" thing. It makes carrying any knife at all in a school, subject to needing a good reason or having lawful authority. It gives examples of such a good reason as being for use at work, for educational purposes, for religious reasons, or as part of any national costume.

Same thing with airports and Section 4 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 "Offences in relation to certain dangerous articles" which I have reprinted in full further up this page. The important bit of section 4 is...

(1) It shall be an offence for any person without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof of which shall lie on him) to have with him...
...any article (not falling within either of the preceding paragraphs) made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person or for destroying

Basically anything that can cause injury, which most definitely includes all knives.

As far as I know, Schools and Airports are the only two "places" that have a specific section of (stricter) law dedicated to them. Everywhere else is just defined as a "public place" and the law applies in equal measure.

However, context is everything. Earlier I mentioned nightclubs, pubs, footie matches etc. The all come under the general heading of "public place" but.... they create differnt contexts with regard to knife carry, which could get you busted for carrying an offensive weapon under the 1953 prevention of crime act.

Clear as mud eh?

 

[Mantic]

Thanks Martyn. I now am empowered with your knowledge

I take my daughter to pre-school so I'll follow the law and leave my 'weapons' at home - no reason not to, so no complaints from me. Of course, I shall also refrain from carrying a biro

Head swimming now, too much cider

 

[Martyn]

I don't think Martyn is a lawyer .

I would rather he "avoided the point" than give out duff gen.

He has obviously done a lot of research into the topic and knows enough to know that he doesn't know it all.

Correct mate, not a lawyer - I mentioned earlier in the thread, just an interested lay-person. I have a good working knowledge of knife related laws, that's all. It certainly isnt comprehensive. I learned from pteron in this thread, that the principle of stare decisis is not binding to the house of lords. That has important implications for the harris ruling and knife carry laws in Britain.

If someone is really interested in some technical or finer point of the law, I suggest getting over to the legal forums on BritishBlades. It's moderated by a full time serving police officer (Ross) with regular input from other police officers (Bagman and others), Danzo - a law lecturer and numerous other members who have backgrounds in the crown prosecution service, law enforcement and legal academics. You'll get rock solid advice from professionals. What I know, I've ;earned from these people and from my own research. Almost every legal act relating to knife ownership and carry is documented there and many cases are covered in depth (Harris, Deegan etc). In my opinion, it's the best and most comprehensive resource on the subject in Britain.

 

[Martyn]

Thanks Martyn. I now am empowered with your knowledge

I take my daughter to pre-school so I'll follow the law and leave my 'weapons' at home - no reason not to, so no complaints from me. Of course, I shall also refrain from carrying a biro

Head swimming now, too much cider

welcome mate.

 

[Graham_S]

i'm holding to the opinion that if i don't have a good reason, anything sharp stays at home.
it's the safest way.

 

[jamesraykenney]

Sorry, I disagree. I think if someone takes a knife to a football match (even as part of a national costume), then they are probably taking it as a weapon. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that and I think an arrest for it is perfectly reasonable.

Think of it the other way, if the cops let 1000 scotts into a footie match with knives in their socks and 20 people got stabbed, you'd probably be wanting to know why the hell they let them into a potentially violent and volatie situation with deadly weapons in full view.

If the cops let 1000 scotts into a footie match with knives in their socks and no one got stabbed, it'd be a blimmin miracle - regardless of whether or not they were wearing skirts.

I wear a knife everywhere I go... I have even had it on me when I had jury duty...
I would guess that 50% of the people at any given ball game have some type of knife on them, and we do not have 20 people getting stabbed... It is a big news story when someone gets stabbed...
Is it a little Swiss army knife I carry? No, I carry the one on the far left in this picture...

Why do I carry this one? Because it fits my hand better than any other knife I own...
It has a 3 1/2 - 3 3/4 inch blade(depending on how you measure it). I know people that carry smaller knives, and others that carry larger...
Why do people think that just because weapons are available, that they WILL be used...
Look at your own history... In the 20's and 30's weapons were (mostly) freely available in the UK... Now look at how many bar fights turned into lethal encounters... Not many, right?
So, why the difference today? Maybe it is because people think of knives and guns as weapons ONLY these days... Back then, they were considered TOOLS. Tools that were only to be used as weapons if you were attacked with other weapons... Most people would never think of drawing a weapon to defend themselves against someone that just punched them(unless the person obviously was trying to KILL them, or the person that was attacking them was of a different category to themselves, like a man attacking a small woman or a kid.). Maybe the fact that old fashioned fistfights are so discouraged today makes people hold in their aggression so much that it just builds up until it exploded in a totally uncontrolled way...

One other thing... When was the Magna Carta revoked? It is one of the most important documents in human history that outlined many of the RIGHTS that humans intrinsically HAVE(not rights GRANTED). And one of the big ones, was the right to self defence, and, if I remember correctly, armed self defence at that...

If there is one thing we Americans can thank you for, it is the Magna Carta... It is one of the things that inspired our own Bill of Rights.

Ok... End rant...

 

[Martyn]

I wear a knife everywhere I go... I have even had it on me when I had jury duty...
I would guess that 50% of the people at any given ball game have some type of knife on them, and we do not have 20 people getting stabbed... It is a big news story when someone gets stabbed...
Is it a little Swiss army knife I carry? No, I carry the one on the far left in this picture...

I dunno what football matches are like in the States, but I'm thinking they are different affairs than British footie matches...

Look at your own history... In the 20's and 30's weapons were (mostly) freely available in the UK... Now look at how many bar fights turned into lethal encounters... Not many, right?
So, why the difference today? Maybe it is because people think of knives and guns as weapons ONLY these days... Back then, they were considered TOOLS. Tools that were only to be used as weapons if you were attacked with other weapons... Most people would never think of drawing a weapon to defend themselves against someone that just punched them(unless the person obviously was trying to KILL them, or the person that was attacking them was of a different category to themselves, like a man attacking a small woman or a kid.). Maybe the fact that old fashioned fistfights are so discouraged today makes people hold in their aggression so much that it just builds up until it exploded in a totally uncontrolled way...

No argument from me. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating the law or defending it, just explaining it.

One other thing... When was the Magna Carta revoked? It is one of the most important documents in human history that outlined many of the RIGHTS that humans intrinsically HAVE(not rights GRANTED). And one of the big ones, was the right to self defence, and, if I remember correctly, armed self defence at that...

If there is one thing we Americans can thank you for, it is the Magna Carta... It is one of the things that inspired our own Bill of Rights.

Ok... End rant...

Well you do have the right to self defence in the UK, and in fact you can defend yourself with any weapon you like that is at hand, including a gun. The important thing is you can only use just enough force to protect yourself. Excessive force or pre emptive force is illegal.

The carring of a knife for self defence, is considered pre emptive. You are planning to get into a knife fight and are going armed. By definition you are carring the knife as a weapon and are automatically guilty of a crime according to the 1953 prevention of crime act. However, if you are being attacked by a knife wielding maniac and your hand falls against, say a kitchen knife, you can legitimately and legally use it to defend yourself.

You just cant plan for it.

 

[jamesraykenney]

<snip>

I do understand that in your job, you need the police on side - I'm sure many of them would be fascinated by what you do - the same as the kids. Provided you have an arrangement in writing from the school, I can't see anyone prosecuting you (at least I surely hope not)

Red

We had a kid over here recently, that, after being dropped of at school, was walking to the door and felt something in his pocket...
He reached in and felt his Boy Scout knife. So, he went into the office and turned it in, because he knew that he was not allowed to have it at school. The school called the POLICE and expelled the kid!!!
They asked him if he knew it was against the rules to bring the knife to school, and he told them that he did, and that is why he turned it in... They said that because he knew the rule against it, that he did it on purpose and so deserved to be expelled... What did they want him to do, sit outside the building all day and not go in?

 

[jamesraykenney]

<snip>

What alternative would you prefer? "Anyone can carry a knife for any purpose"? Now THAT would see a dramatic change in the knife attack statistics....and not a good one either

<snip>

That is BASICLY the law here(with some exceptions, like switchblades{in this state at least}), and we do not have a lot of knife crime...

You baned guns, and gun crime went up... You further restricted knives and knife crime went up...
Hmmm.
In every state (over here) that has enacted concealed carry laws(allowing the concealed of firearms), the firearm related crime rate went DOWN... Strange but true...

 

[Martyn]

That is BASICLY the law here(with some exceptions, like switchblades{in this state at least}), and we do not have a lot of knife crime...

You baned guns, and gun crime went up... You further restricted knives and knife crime went up...
Hmmm.
In every state (over here) that has enacted concealed carry laws(allowing the concealed of firearms), the firearm related crime rate went DOWN... Strange but true...

You are comparing apples with oranges though. American society is very different to British society. Up and down are relative terms. Both knife crime and gun crime are almost none existant in the UK, when compared to US statistics. The enactment of concealed carry laws has such an impact on gun crime, only because gun crime is so high to start with. In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States. In the same year in the UK there were 62 (approximately the same number that get struck by lightening each year in the UK). The US has approximately 5x the population of the UK. Even factoring in the difference of population, you are still 92 times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. For the sake of argument, lets say gun deaths in the UK increaded by 100% from 1999 to 2000 - that would be an increase from 62 to 124 = 100%. But, it's not significant because the number is so small to start with. It makes a nonesense of up/down unless you express it in actual numbers.

What would be the point of a concealed carry law in the UK? The only effect I could see is it would take gun crime out of the "struck by lightening" risk and into the "struck by car" risk.

The concealed carry law makes sense in the US, but only because gun crime is so out of control anyway. It's a thumb in the dyke. In the UK it would be stupendously unwise.

With regard to knives, the crime level hasnt hardly changed over the last 10 years. These are the home office statistics...

Interesting isnt it? Consistantly between 200 and 275 killings a year from sharp instruments, out of a population of 58 million - hardly an epidemic.


Anyway, we digress. This thread is about UK knife law, not whether or not we should carry weapons.

Please dont drag it into an inter-continental argument about weaponry.

 

[jamesraykenney]

If you check back a page on this thread, you'll see that Martyn has addressed this question. It's only my query re: penknives in schools, airports, etc which he refuses to answer.

I think he's avoiding the point.

Haha (sorry, bad pun).

On a slightly OT matter, did anyone notice that our dearly departed Hilltop seems to have more than just one screw loose. Here's a comment he made in the "a secondary knife?" thread -

"i have a SAK in every rucksak and bergen i own, this way i am never without a good usefull knife, i leave them in there . also i have an opinel in the pocket of my windproof smock, i leave it in there, secondary knives are a life saver, as switched on and hardcore as a think i am , i have forgotten knives on my travels, these measures have made a major disaster into a minor niggle, you cant carve yourself a knife, lol, lol,".

I think BorderReiver may have a point re: his mental stability....

Actually, it almost looks like someone that did not like him, got his password and just started posting garbage using is accounts on the boards... This kind of thing is NOT unheard of... Those posts you mention just seem to not make ANY sense, in light of those anti-knife posts he made in this thread...

 

[jamesraykenney]

I dunno what football matches are like in the States, but I'm thinking they are different affairs than British footie matches...

No argument from me. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating the law or defending it, just explaining it.



Well you do have the right to self defence in the UK, and in fact you can defend yourself with any weapon you like that is at hand, including a gun. The important thing is you can only use just enough force to protect yourself. Excessive force or pre emptive force is illegal.

The carring of a knife for self defence, is considered pre emptive. You are planning to get into a knife fight and are going armed. By definition you are carring the knife as a weapon and are automatically guilty of a crime according to the 1953 prevention of crime act. However, if you are being attacked by a knife wielding maniac and your hand falls against, say a kitchen knife, you can legitimately and legally use it to defend yourself.

You just cant plan for it.

Ok, that makes it make a LITTLE more sense...
What about 'PURE' defensive items? Like a padded leather jacket if you know you may be in an area where you may get attacked... Like a footie match...

 

[jamesraykenney]

You are comparing apples with oranges though. American society is very different to British society. Up and down are relative terms. Both knife crime and gun crime are almost none existant in the UK, when compared to US statistics. The enactment of concealed carry laws has such an impact on gun crime, only because gun crime is so high to start with. In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States. In the same year in the UK there were 62 (approximately the same number that get struck by lightening each year in the UK). The US has approximately 5x the population of the UK. Even factoring in the difference of population, you are still 92 times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. For the sake of argument, lets say gun deaths in the UK increaded by 100% from 1999 to 2000 - that would be an increase from 62 to 124 = 100%. But, it's not significant because the number is so small to start with. It makes a nonesense of up/down unless you express it in actual numbers.

What would be the point of a concealed carry law in the UK? The only effect I could see is it would take gun crime out of the "struck by lightening" risk and into the "struck by car" risk.

The concealed carry law makes sense in the US, but only because gun crime is so out of control anyway. It's a thumb in the dyke. In the UK it would be stupendously unwise.

With regard to knives, the crime level hasnt hardly changed over the last 10 years. These are the home office statistics...

Interesting isnt it? Consistantly between 200 and 275 killings a year from sharp instruments, out of a population of 58 million - hardly an epidemic.


Anyway, we digress. This thread is about UK knife law, not whether or not we should carry weapons.

Please dont drag it into an inter-continental argument about weaponry.

Sorry, did not mean to do that...
It was just that, from all the hoopla that your press and government is making about knife attacks, we get the impression that you cannot walk down the street in London without getting attacked...
It is amazing how violent the UK seems from listening to OUR media(they must just be repeating YOUR media's exaggerations).

 

[Andy]

What about 'PURE' defensive items? Like a padded leather jacket if you know you may be in an area where you may get attacked... Like a footie match...

That's fine, it's not made, adapted or intended to cause halm (unlike carry a knife for SD) so it's not a weapon.
A fair number of doormen(and women) wear stab vests

am I right in thinking that (in theory) the locking knife=fixed blade could be taken to the house of lords (law lords) a number of ties and each time it's uphelp all the corts have to go with that but if they decide once that lock knife=folding knife then all the courts go back to that.
Why on why can't danzo be a law lord

 

[Mantic]

Actually, it almost looks like someone that did not like him, got his password and just started posting garbage using is accounts on the boards... This kind of thing is NOT unheard of... Those posts you mention just seem to not make ANY sense, in light of those anti-knife posts he made in this thread...

I must admit that I was so surprised by his outburst that I did a little research (I was also thinking that someone had hijacked his account). However, if you look at his other comments / threads you'll see his style throughout them all. Take a peek over at British Blades and you'll see how long he lasted there. One of the funniest / saddest things I've seen in a while

Regarding your other posts, very interesting indeed. I've lived in the States (a while back now) and have done a fair amount of shooting there too. Last time I was in Florida I completely forgot that I had my lock-knife on me when I went to Magic Kingdom in Florida. Since they check everyone for 'weapons' (including knives), and rather than risk detection, I had to walk the 1/2 mile back to the car, deposit my knife and then wander back into the park. Your rules have changed somewhat as well over the years and it's all been since 9/11.

 

[Andy]

It is amazing how violent the UK seems from listening to OUR media(they must just be repeating YOUR media's exaggerations).

you mean US media covers what's happening in the UK. That amazes me on it's own. The fact that our stabbings and shooting togeather add up to less then 300 for a population of 58million instead of 28,000 for 250million suggests that maybe the US media wants to draw attention away from the murder rate over there.

an intersting subject that I'd love to chat about but this isn't the place

 

[bogflogger]

Off topic I'm afraid but:

Although Hilltop was completely out of order, there is one thing that we should remember:

Hilltop said that he has been shot at, and judging by his Signature, he has been in the Paratroop Regiment, one of the Finest Regiments in the British Army.

It is therefore likely, that he has been in some extremely dangerous places and seen some appalling things, during his time Serving Our Country.

Hilltop, if you read this, please get in touch with the Royal British Leigon, you need to De-mob Mate, and they can help you deal with Civillian Life.

All the best to you for the future.