Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[Martyn]

Interesting you should mention that, as it is something I have thought about.
Why don't I go and show them what I have got, let them see I am not an aggressive yob and that my blade is a tool, not a weapon and see what they say about it, but as said, they enforce the law, not make it, so would it make any difference, if I was caught with my locking leatherman, while walking a street, after forgeting to take it off my belt.................Jon

It might make a difference in terms of letting the police know that there are responsible people out there that still want to carry and use knives as tools, not weapons. It might soften thier attitude at the next ACPO meeting, but I dont think it would stop you getting arrested.

I know the laws can seem draconian in this country, but a snippet that might be of interrest, Norway does not allow the public carry of ANY knife without a good reason, not even a small, non locking SAK. Niether does Australia for that matter. I think in Denmark, the maximum blade length is 2 and 1/2 inches. Doesnt make any difference to us of course, it's a small comfort, but there are other countries in a worse position.

 

[Lurch]

See the thing is Martyn, I think perhaps if you'd been a little more clear that you were asking Neiltoo to leave the polytickle out instead of being abrupt (rude?) then he might not have responded to the barb.

I know you're a decent fella but sometimes over here you do seem to be a bit on the grouchy side.

 

[Toddy]

Okay; it goes like this.

*Knives are an emotive subject; this topic has been watched and moderated since the beginning of the thread.

*Political rants are not encouraged on site.

*When asked to moderate tone, language, etc., take it as a gentle hint that things are getting a little out of hand.

*Mods are people too, refuse to listen to a gentle hint, clear reminder, warning, and yes we may get irritated / shirty, and you may be moderated to keep quiet for bit until things calm down. If that doesn't work and you persist then banning is an option.

This thread is too full of excellent information to be reduced to a ranting snarl.
Please do ask questions, read the answers and contribute.

Martyn has extended not only a great deal of time to keep this thread on-line and productive but has shown an incredible amount of patience and tolerance.
Modding is a bit like an iceberg, most of it's hidden and the surface just *looks* lovely

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Lurch]

Fair play.
I just like things friendly and polite, naive old fool that I am.

 

[BorderReiver]

Fair play.
I just like things friendly and polite, naive old fool that I am.

You're not alone Lurch.

 

[Andy]

One thing that might be worth mentioning is that although you carrying other bits of kit may help your good reason defence others may not

I have in the past carried (and still do at times) a self defence spray, other people might carry a personal attack alarm. This of course shows that you are concerned about being attacked and so carrying a otherwise legal knife with this might be a bad idea as it more likely to be seen as been carried for protection. This was mentioned by a policeman who suggested I carry the spay after two threats in the street (one of which at knife point)

 

[Doc]

For the avoidance of doubt, 'self defence sprays' containing pepper, mace, CS gas or any other noxious substance are classed (along with machine guns, etc)as section 5 firearms in the UK. This means that possession is unlawful.

I have seen sprays containing non toxic sticky dye. I suppose if these are not 'noxious' they may be legal. Whether they would be of any value, I do not know.

 

[Andy]

I have seen sprays containing non toxic sticky dye. I suppose if these are not 'noxious' they may be legal. Whether they would be of any value, I do not know.

The spray in question is a non toxic foam paint type that is meant to be rather unpleasant and difficult to remove but not harmless.
something like this
http://www.c-p-p.co.uk/product/asp/ProdID/2324/CtgID/1006/af/page.htm

 

[Mantic]

I've used pepper spray before with considerable effect. Its classification with other section 5 firearms is completely reasonable - a shame of course but there we go.

I'm surprised that the goo spray that has been mentioned has remained legal since it can still harm (a 4.5 metre jet could conceivably damage a person's eyes). Since there is no difference between a weapon of offence and a weapon of defence, our government has a tendency to make such things illegal.

I wonder how many times they have been used both successfully / illegally.

Mind you, I doubt you can cut much with them

 

[Naruska]

Mantic wrote...

Now here is a fine example of 'rubbing it in'. Bah!

Sorry...

Lurch wrote...

Yeah, but behind Scotland, England & Wales though eh?

I meant in proportion to population...in Finland there`s only some 5 million inhabitants...several people get knifed or axed virtually every day...I think the difference is that in the U.K. events take place between people who don`t know each other, here it`s more a question of mates stabbing each other or spouses while drunk...

Which is worse...?

Marko

 

[useless]

Wow!

I must say that, even with the occasional disagreement, this has to be one of the most informative threads I've ever read! Martyn, in particular, thanks for the info'. I've stopped carrying my opinel in my coat pocket as a result of the discourse here. Like many, I carried it because it was handy every now and then for all kinds of stuff. However, I can see the direction things are going in. If I'm stopped for something daft (all be it with good reason) I have a certain amount of trust in officers telling me off and sending me on my way. My occaisionaly useful tool might then become an un needed complication.

However... and this is a technical piece of interest rather than anything else...

Following the London bombings I went into the city to meet my brother blah blah blah.... I thought it might be a sensible idea to carry a "preparedness" kit (rather than survival kit), particularly for the underground. Along with a first aid kit, water, chocolate and torch I took my Victorinox multi-tool (locking blades!). I figured I could probably break windows with it more reliably than my SAK, and it is a VERY useful bit of kit.

I suspect my "demographic profile" would have added to the context of any likely search, but I wonder if I might have been considered to have "good reason".

Any thoughts welcomed.

 

[Mantic]

Hi Useless. Yes, it is a shame in many respects that 'I carry a knife because it's useful' isn't a reasonable reason for carrying a knife.

I use my Spyderco Delica every couple of days for odd jobs in and out of the house but I can't state that as my reason for carrying it. As it happens, I do have a reason for carrying it but it gets used more for odd jobs than for the 'legal' reason. How long ago was it that we could carry a locking knife without significant reason? Once again, a small element of undesirables have taken a freedom from a much larger group. A shame but then that, as they say, is life.

It would be interesting if we could review cases of people being involved with the police / courts over knife carrying. I wonder how often sense prevails over the letter of the law We certainly hear a lot of scare stories but then they are more newsworthy than the cases in which people of our ilk 'won the day'.

 

[Minotaur]

I've stopped carrying my opinel in my coat pocket as a result of the discourse here. Like many, I carried it because it was handy every now and then for all kinds of stuff.

That is the dangerous sort of carry(This is not a dig). Think about it, the one airport case was of someone who did not even realise he was carrying until the x-ray found it, stuck in the lining. Carrying something illegal without knowledge and reason is how I see myself getting stopped i.e. I had forgot it was there.

Following the London bombings I went into the city to meet my brother blah blah blah.... I thought it might be a sensible idea to carry a "preparedness" kit (rather than survival kit), particularly for the underground. Along with a first aid kit, water, chocolate and torch I took my Victorinox multi-tool (locking blades!). I figured I could probably break windows with it more reliably than my SAK, and it is a VERY useful bit of kit.

I suspect my "demographic profile" would have added to the context of any likely search, but I wonder if I might have been considered to have "good reason".

Any thoughts welcomed.

I think, the answer would be no to the good reason. The other thing to consider is that going into a railway or tube station you could get stopped and searched, simply to balance out the profile. I have changed my preparedness kit so the base set up no longer has a knife of any sort in it. I add a small SAK, which is changed to a Leatherman depending on location.

 

[hilltop]

i asked my sons cub scout leader who is a copper, his answer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in the eyes of the law NO GOOD REASON, however its up to the officer, whether he arrests or confiscates

 

[Mantic]

i asked my sons cub scout leader who is a copper, his answer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in the eyes of the law NO GOOD REASON, however its up to the officer, whether he arrests or confiscates

I'm not entirely sure if I read you right there. Are you suggesting that the police officer in question believes that there is no good reason for carrying a knife in public?

I surely hope not because it would suggest that he is not only ignorant of the law(s) in question but also if he made such an arrest / confiscation it could be baseless and illegal.

I wonder how he is able to conduct himself as a cub scout leader with that attitude?

If I didn't read you correctly, please accept my most humble pericombobulations

 

[Martyn]

I have changed my preparedness kit so the base set up no longer has a knife of any sort in it. I add a small SAK, which is changed to a Leatherman depending on location.

It's worth noting, that although the 1953 prevention of crime act means that literally anything can be classified as a weapon, the onus is on the police to establish that. Yes, the can arrest you, but they do need to provide grounds for doing so to the Crown prosecution service before any case can be bought against you.

It is perfectly legal to carry a non-locking knife, with a blade under 3", just because you feel like it. You are not required to provide a reason and do not have to justify carrying it.

If the police want to arrest and charge you with carrying an offensive weapon, then they must establish the grounds for that.

Simply having a knife in your kitbag is not grounds for arrest. The police must have reasonable suspicion of your intent to use it as a weapon, or the context must carry a high likelyhood of inapproriateness - a nightclub, football matc etc.

If you are simply walking down the street, minding you own business with a non-locking 3 inch swiss army knife in your pocket - you are not breaking any laws.

 

[Minotaur]

i asked my sons cub scout leader who is a copper, his answer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in the eyes of the law NO GOOD REASON, however its up to the officer, whether he arrests or confiscates

This is going to be fun.

He is wrong

The law clearly states that context and reason apply, so on my way to and from Martial Arts class I can carry a sword in a bag. If stopped, yes officer here is my license and look there is my smelly gi. Same thing going into a pub, going to jail. You can carry any number of items, that only become illegal when your reason is stated i.e. a baseball bat for self defense.

One of the problems is what you said it is down to the officer and people have got done for legal carrys i.e. non locking SAK. One of the reasons I have stopped carrrying in certain cucrumstances is because I do not want my journey delayed by a trip to the local nick, and a day in court when I refuse the fine.

Also I think we have to accept that the world has changed as far as being in a public places (i.e. any public transport), even with good reason, with any blade. If I was a Police Officer in this day and age, the risk is not worth it.

 

[Mantic]

Martyn, could you remind us (me?) of what constitutes an 'inappropriate place'? Do such locations prohibit the carrying of any knife (sub 3" non-lockers included)?

Sorry for the repeat....

 

[Martyn]

If you are carrying a lock knife:
You need to provide the reasonable reason to carry, if not, you are breaking the law.

If you are carrying a 3" bladed non locking knife:
The Police need to provide a reasonable reason to suspect you are going to use it as a weapon. If they cant, you are not breaking the law.

 

[Martyn]

Martyn, could you remind us (me?) of what constitutes an 'inappropriate place'? Do such locations prohibit the carrying of any knife (sub 3" non-lockers included)?

Sorry for the repeat....

Airports and Schools have specific legislation, but pretty much everywhere else is subject to "reasonable" in that it's reasonable to suspect someone might be up to no good with a 9" dagger at a nightclub. It's largely commonsensical. You have to think "what would most people think?" and go with that. It's no so much the place, as the context. The legislation just speaks of "public place", but obviously some public places are more prone to being viewed with disdain that others.